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		<title>NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
		<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9</link>
		<description>Posts in the discussion thread &quot;NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9&quot;</description>
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4817069</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4817069</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>OctarineShrike</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>4185442</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Thanks for bearing with me/weighing in on this.</p> <p>So&#8230; natures are a characterization statement(possibly a measure of personal enlightenment/how in touch you are with your current self too, current is a necessary qualifier given the capacity for mental self editing becoming and Personae provide), combined with magical training in a tradition.</p> <p>The augs/gear/specialized training necessary to reach Nature 4, Nature 5, those are sorcery advancements enabling people with the same depth of connection to aspects of themselves to have higher ratings in a nature.</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4817026</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4817026</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2020 16:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Colin_Fredericks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>58784</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>At their most fundamental, Nature scores are about who you are and what you choose to do. The fact that they <em>allow</em> you to do things is their function in game terms, but metaphysically speaking that's practically a side effect. People who have a high War score are warlike; people with a high Mystery score are mysterious or love solving mysteries or, more likely, both.</p> <p>You can theoretically have someone who's belligerent with a low War score if they haven't bothered to learn any techniques from the War side of their Tradition, but that's fairly unlikely. They're going to want to learn those things because they value them. Someone who loves crafting is going to learn how to conjure because it's fun and rewarding for them. Someone who really loves to talk is going to learn Farspeech and Dream Travel and Hypnopraxis because then they can literally make friends in their sleep and that's very cool to them. If they change their feelings on the world, their Nature score can drop, either because their skills get rusty or because their connection to that part of themselves is weaker (again, more likely both).</p> <p>As sorcery advances, people with the same depth of connection to, for example, their Industrious selves are going to effectively have higher ratings in the Industry-nature. That's because in game terms your score represents <em>effectiveness</em> - it's a combination of your innate and developed character traits with the magical training to take advantage of them. (Professions represent &quot;mundane&quot; training that can take advantage of or synergize with your magical power.)</p> <p>I don't think of Natures as cosmic principles, but I do think of them as human constants - things where their absence in a person would be considered notable. A being with a different set of Natures would probably feel very alien. (Founts, on the other hand, are cosmic principles in this game.)</p> <p>Fount enchantment is a little old and I might need to ditch it. It made more sense when access to a fount resulted in specific benefits.</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4816574</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4816574</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2020 00:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>OctarineShrike</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>4185442</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>I suppose once could say it's easier to reach nature 3 in other traditions after you've reached nature 3 in your first tradition, you already have the power, you're just developing the skills.</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4816564</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4816564</link>
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				<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2020 00:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>OctarineShrike</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>4185442</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Interesting.</p> <p>Trying to work out the metaphysics of how natures and stuff work in universe. I suspect things are muddled and I'm trying to see what sense I can make of things.</p> <p><strong>List of quotes from searching for talk of natures in beta 3 combined with the occasional tangent and/or question</strong></p> <p>Page 7</p> <blockquote> <p>Natures (basic attributes enhanced by magic)</p> </blockquote> <p>Page 23</p> <blockquote> <p>Nature scores are numerical ratings that<br /> represent the degree to which your<br /> character harmonizes with certain facets of<br /> humanity.</p> </blockquote> <p>Page 36</p> <blockquote> <p>Whereas Nature scores represent inborn<br /> proclivities and mystical enhancement</p> </blockquote> <p>There's also Chakra Occlusion. Enchantment on page 121 means the personal power portion of a nature can be lent to other people. Shapeshifting is demanding enough on ones personal power to reduce all natures by 1.</p> <p>Page 122 has a weird bit I'm not sure I've understood that talks about a filter upon ones nature. What's the point of enchanting somebody with access to a fount? Were I to attempt to define a tradition, it would be&#8230; <em>A tradition is a set of techniques used as a mental focusing aid to get results from a fount.</em> Does enchanting somebody with a fount turn the hypothetical enchantees Earthpower techniques into Glory techniques while they use the same path?</p> <blockquote> <p>It is possible to enchant someone with<br /> access to a Fount rather than with a<br /> specific magical effect. This is an<br /> enchantment of the Self, wherein the<br /> enchanted can use magic up to the level of<br /> the enchantment as if they were using the<br /> enchanter's Fount. It is effectively a filter<br /> upon one's Nature. Theurge and Scholar<br /> are appropriate Professions.<br /> However, Enchantment cannot grant<br /> access to a Path. Paths are skills and<br /> understandings. They can be relayed via<br /> Rapport but not via Enchantment.</p> </blockquote> <p>Page 141 Establishes nature depth has Psychological Effects(The Terror Blurb).</p> <p>Per page 210 and the Burning Dream Blurb on page 116, One needs specialized techniques for natures besides Communion, Mystery, or Trickery, to matter in the Dream Realms.</p> <p>Page 227</p> <blockquote> <p>Nature: The six components of one's identity<br /> that shape how magic is created. The natures<br /> are Communion, Industry, Mystery, Self,<br /> Trickery, and War. Some supernatural beings<br /> have idiosyncratic seventh natures that are<br /> connected to their unique identities.</p> </blockquote> <hr /> <p><strong>In which I attempt to explain and Muse on what natures are in universe, mixed with stuff I've seen on this board</strong></p> <p>A Nature is a nebulous mix of personal power/metaphysical health(fueling reserve) and skills applicable to a given category of magical techniques within a tradition. The personal power angle gets weird with separate nature scores for each tradition unless each individual tradition uses different mechanisms in somebody's metaphysical corpus(Everything about them, body, mind, soul, the effects they make on other dimensions by existing, etc. Everything). I can see the skills side being tradition dependent though.</p> <p>The personal power could be subsections of whatever metaphysical organs generate flow within a sapient body and handle the conceptual aspects of interacting with the world. They could be distinct flow generating metaphysical organs. These subsections/organs may or may not be connected to the natures as cosmic principles of the multiverse. They could just be conceptually tinged with each nature as a thing unrelated to anything in the multiverse, and disconnecting removes or cripples that particular metaphysical organ as opposed to severing your link to a cosmic principle. Becoming enlarges and/or strengthens the metaphysical organs.</p> <p>Alternatively, the natures are cosmic principles. Through using the right techniques in becoming, ones metaphysical self becomes deeper inside the nature. Depth becomes progressively harder to attain as one goes deeper, necessitating specialized training routines and/or transhumanism. The side effects of the process of attaining depth enables one to transcend human limits as the line between human and concept becomes blurred. Disconnecting from a nature means one leaves the cosmic principle completely. The War and Industry cosmic principles have no sway in Dream Realms without specialized techniques(The Burning Dream).</p> <p>As for how to make the cosmic principle route work with different traditions having different natures assuming one wanted to make the personal power part of natures a distinct thing separate from the skills side of a nature? You'd have to have the founts as intermediaries with the natures, with subcomponents acting as adapters. And the nature knows if you disconnected on one adapter and disconnects you on any other ports you're using. If the nature existed to the access of sapients without a fount as intermediary, one could potentially gain depth in it directly.</p> <hr /> <p><strong>I have no idea what to call this bit of musings things got kind of disorganized</strong></p> <p>Natures are described in terms of depth, possibly even in Universe(Deep in the War nature)</p> <p>Becoming is used to raise the personal power side of nature depth like some kind of Xianxia cultivation technique or something. The peak depth reachable by a baseline human from scratch is stage 3(having 3 in a nature, it may be called stage 2 if baseline humanity isn't counted).</p> <p>You need some combination of magitechnological enhancements(tattoos, soul wards, surgically implanted augs, etc), specialized training from experts, etc to attain a depth stage beyond 3. Having the right equipment and/or magical favors on hand can give you an effective/in practice depth exceeding 3 without exceeding 3 on a metaphysical level yourself. The existence of the sixth sense and disconnection means other peoples depths are measurable in universe things.</p> <p>How becoming being sufficient to raise peoples natures interacts with discipline paths has the potential to be interesting. Becoming is what provides actual depth in a nature metaphysically speaking assuming I understand. So depth loss from lack of training would be pseudo depth loss. Rusty skills.</p> <hr /> <p>Tangentially as an afterthought, I saw dreamshaping and it has the potential for nature 6 techniques in dreamworlds. That would, were it defined instead of a homebrew subject for a GM, be farking awesome.<br /> Edit: But since it isn't, there may be need for refinement there if you haven't done that already.</p> 
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				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4816479</link>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2020 21:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Colin_Fredericks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>58784</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Nope, you still have a (potentially) different set of Natures and a different Power score for each Tradition.</p> <p>Approaches are Tradition-independent, though. I'm not sure if I've noted that anywhere.</p> 
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				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4816449</link>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2020 20:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>OctarineShrike</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>4185442</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Are Nature Ratings Tradition independent now?(Edit: Meaning 1 set of natures applies to all styles of magic, and you pay twists to use a different path and/or fount the first time you do it in a session like in the new power calculation method thread)</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4816439</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4816439</link>
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				<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2020 19:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Colin_Fredericks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>58784</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Definitely true. Even if you're on your own, PCs are active more often than they're defensive.</p> <p>Natures in Sorcerously Advanced are <em>slightly</em> more compartmentalized than Capabilities in Sufficiently, and not just because there are six of them. In the end, though, I decided that the rule from SA2 was pretty close to the right one.</p> <p>The rule is now: Average your top two Nature scores. That's your Power score. If all four of your other Nature scores are 1, subtract 1.</p> <p>This puts Power scores in general slightly higher than Tech scores, but Sorcerously also has the Worst Enemy Rule, which Sufficiently does not, and which lets people gain Twists more easily.</p> 
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				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4815446</link>
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				<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2020 13:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>1of3</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>997539</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>The old system had the advantage of being a rather simple formula, so you could program it. I think using a programmatic solution is actually the way to go with this game.</p> <p>One thing to consider in general: If the PCs are working as a party, a high value is much better than a low value bad. Because, if there is a problem to solve, the specialist can likely do it, if there is one. So your low values don't hurt to much.</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4815081</guid>
				<title>Re: NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4815081</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2020 23:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Colin_Fredericks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>58784</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Uggghhh also I realized that I can't use my new Power calculation because it only works easily the first time. If you later use Becoming to change your stats, you can't easily figure out your new Power score.</p> <p>There must be some sort of simple way to do this. The major issue is just that I don't know how I want it to work yet because I don't have enough comfort and familiarity with the Nature scores.</p> 
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				<guid>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064#post-4815033</guid>
				<title>NaGaDeMon 2020: Day 9</title>
				<link>http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-13858064/nagademon-2020:day-9#post-4815033</link>
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				<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2020 21:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
				<wikidot:authorName>Colin_Fredericks</wikidot:authorName>				<wikidot:authorUserId>58784</wikidot:authorUserId>				<content:encoded>
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						 <p>Finished the examples for Twist use and how to take Complications. Both are a little shorter than in SA2.</p> <p>I've also found a few places where the text styles were not what I expected (bullets based on the Base style instead of the Body style like they should be). I'll need to do a bunch of style checks before I can do final layout. I'm just glad I can see the difference between 12pt and 11pt text.</p> 
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