Story Triggers

Summary:

They're *this* close to being awesome -- let's work them out a bit more.

Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1250563388|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So my Thu crew is about to jump into a SA campaign. We have 4-5 players ready to rock. We've played through a couple make-believe conflicts so we can see themes, twists, extended conflicts and all that play out. What's left is to really get our heads around player-created Story Triggers.

Right now, it looks like the biggest area that could use some guidance is

a) More guidelines for suitable trigger elements at each level — how does a (1) look compared to a (3) compared to a (5)?

b) Tying together the Theme used to create the trigger, and a Core Value

c) Suitable/allowable changes to established triggers, for those players who want to be a bit more tactical in their play.

First off, is anyone successfully playing with Story Triggers? If so, what issues have you run into? What does the system seem to be especially GOOD at?

Second, has anyone else thought much about the points above? At first blush, it feels like a trigger element's rank is tied to the scope of the thing. I had doodled up a VERY rough list of "scopes" that look like this:

1: Personal (extends to a single character)
2: Local (extends to a small group in the same location; a Society on one planet)
3: Regional (extends to a large group spread across a major area; a whole Society)
4: Planetary (extends to everyone on a single planet or the local Infosphere)
5: Civilization (extends to an entire civilization or the entire Infosphere)

But it's just a start, and I'm frankly not sure how I'd apply these ideas to, say, the Reveal stage or anything.

p.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1250792610|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Further thoughts: I chatted with a couple folks who have AP experience with SA about the Story Triggers concept and I think I've got additional guidance ideas.

For one, it appears that the ST system is good for players to wrestle screen time. I think that if they're instructed to form their player-built Story Triggers around their Core Values, that'll come to light. Also when a player takes an existing Story Trigger element and changing it, I think I'd advise them to focus the change on their Core Value. Hopefully that will bypass my concern that players may alter a good story trigger (lots of conflict) into a "winning" story trigger (no conflict).

So, that said, it might be useful to somehow tie your Core Value's ranking into the trigger alteration/creation. Maybe mechanically? I'm not sure how I'd do that. Maybe the Complication cost goes down as the related CV goes up. Dunno. That's full-on rewrite territory, which we may or may not get into.

Anyway, it also sounded like from the experienced players' POV that it's assumed that GMs lay out several Story Triggers at the start of play. It sounds like this sort of lets the players shop upcoming story arcs in a way. I need to think more on how multiple Story Triggers in play interact with one another. I don't think I want to get into a really crunch add-em-up/"Rune the RPG" style system. Just more guidance on the best way to treat interacting triggers.

Hm, last thought while I work through this: since the GM cannot spend Twists, that means he can't impact a Story Trigger in play. I know the GM can always create MORE Story Triggers, but that feels like it could increase the handling time. My concern goes like this:

GM creates a Story Trigger. The effect (5) is something along the lines of "Civs X and Y go to war!". Player comes in, cashes in enough Twists change that effect (5) into something like "Civs X and Y join forces and make the PC their king!". Okay, that's a silly scenario, right, but what I'm getting at is that once a Trigger has been altered, the GM can't touch it. Is that by design?

p.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1250813834|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So after further reading, re-reading, and writing and re-writing my crib sheet, I noticed I made a couple fundamental errors in understanding the math behind Story Triggers. Just to be clear: it sounds like the division is that players use Themes to create and alter and activate, while the GM uses Complications to do those things as well.

I still feel some ambiguity around these rules — specifically, if a player doesn't HAVE to have a high enough Theme rank to activate an element, what guidelines are there for what a suitable Theme activation is? It reads like the player basically just has to create a Theme effect that matches/replicates one of the mundane approaches. So like, if my "reveal" involves belonging to the Sleepers, then I could use Empathy, Romance, Magnetism or maybe even Intrigue to basically reproduce that effect — oh hey, turns out I know someone in the Sleepers! Have I got that right?

EDIT: I noticed something new. The first column of p.123 says the GM can create a story trigger whenever he likes, 'though he can only make one active if the right level of Complication comes up. Players have to use Twists to create their Triggers, but are then able to activate the Triggers much more easily.' Later, the second column of p.123 talks about the level of Theme needed create/alter and the level of Complication needed to create/alter/activate.

So it sounds like the GM must spend Complications to create/alter/activate, but this is at odds with the previous "the GM can do it whenever he or she likes." Does the GM need a Complication to create a new Trigger element or not? Or can the GM just pull them out of the air?

It's also at odds with the GM constructing a Trigger with any element at level 5 — for example, the "Cutting Ties" example on p. 127.

I suspect the math actually goes:

Player uses a Theme to create or alter up to the Theme's rank, or activate regardless of rank if the Theme can create a suitable effect.

GM uses a Complication to alter or activate up to the Theme's rank, but can create entirely new triggers at any time.

last edited on 1250815199|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Paul Beakley + show more

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1250861580|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Player uses a Theme to create or alter up to the Theme's rank, or activate regardless of rank if the Theme can create a suitable effect.
GM uses a Complication to alter or activate up to the Theme's rank, but can create entirely new triggers at any time.

Hi Paul,
That sums up what I understand to be the intent behind Story Triggers. I confess, I haven't thoroughly read through that section, having used them from informal discussions with Colin. The idea is that Story Triggers are a way for the GM to organize his plot ideas and present them to the players in a way that is succinct and doesn't necessarily give everything away. So the GM can create new Triggers at any time, simply because it's needed for populating the plot pool, if you will. In order for players to mess with the plot, it costs them Twists.
I think of the use of complications by the GM to activate a Trigger element not so much as payment as just a way of tying in what is currently happening in the game to what the GM has previously made plans for. A linkage.

It reads like the player basically just has to create a Theme effect that matches/replicates one of the mundane approaches.

That is the intent. Since using a Theme costs a Twist, it's expensive. So the effect should be easy to pull off. For example, from the sample Trigger "The Logicians Explore Emotion", one of the reveals is "One of the characters is a trusted member of the Logician nobility." One could spend a Twist in the Theme Intrigue: I know a guy… to say that he has a good Logician noble friend who has confided in him that the Logicians yadda yadda.

Does the GM need a Complication to create a new Trigger element or not?

The confusion here seems to be in the writing of those two paragraphs on page 123 that you mentioned. My understanding is the GM never creates single Trigger elements. He creates a whole Trigger or alters an existing Trigger element to fit the occasion. Okay, I shouldn't say never. The point here is that the GM is free to, and indeed needs to, extemporize during game play to adapt to the changing plot structure. There may be an occasion where he realizes a new Reveal needs to be slipped in to accommodate the players. That makes sense, since you can't cover all eventualities of a dynamic plot. That also follows from the Players' perspective, too, I suppose. I can imagine being in a campaign and seeing that we are moving away from a set of reveals attached to a Trigger I find interesting, but that has been somewhat neglected. I might notice that the Reveals as stated have become too limiting and create one better tailored to the new situation.

So to answer the question, no, the GM does not need an associated Complication to add Reveals to a Trigger. The Secret and Lever are pretty static. There's only one Secret and one Lever per Trigger, so you wouldn't add any on the fly.

Slaintè,
Q

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1250880717|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hhhhhokay! So I did up my first draft of a Story Triggers cribsheet. Here's the email I sent to my crew (and Colin), and the attendant material:

---

The attached document represents my best understanding of the SA Story Triggers rules (mostly) as written, and what they're intended to do. In tearing the book's chapter apart and reassembling for crib sheet purposes, I identified a few inconsistencies. I've reconciled them this way:

• To help encapsulate what a story trigger element's rank is supposed to entail, I've introduced the idea of "scope." In most cases it's fairly obvious how to tie scope to a secret, or a lever, or a final effect. This doesn't work out so well when talking about "reveals", so I've fudged and explained it only as "the difficulty of fulfilling any given Reveal requirement." I'll take other ideas as well.
• I think there's a hiccup in the procedure for GMs to create new Story Trigger elements. It looks to me like the GM can actually create elements of any rank whenever he wants (p. 123, 4th graf) but is constrained in altering them (p. 123, bottom of second column). I've reframed the procedure to reflect that.
• I tore apart the sample story triggers and found some commonalities — Secrets are always impending crises, Reveals are always character-level activities, Levers are always single events, and Effects introduce changes to the established setting material. So again I've explained them thusly.
• My best understanding of using a Theme to activate a Reveal or a Lever is that a) the Theme's rank isn't relevant for activation, thus b) the point of using a Theme is to replicate a "mundane" Reveal or Lever requirement in the game fiction. Example: if one of your mundane Reveal requirements is something like "visit Tao space three times to meet with actors," well then any Theme that could retroactively create that fact — oh hey, I was there just last year! via, say, Romance or Magnetism or something — would also fulfill that Reveal. If you can do that with a lower rank, go for it.
• For balance purposes, and because I don't honestly see it being used to create retroactive event facts in the same was as the other Themes, I've excluded Plot Immunity from the list of useable Themes. Help de-uberize Plot Immunity I think.

Finally: There is no formal procedure in place for determining the suitability of any given story trigger element other than to "be collaborative." This is at odds with what appears to be the natural tension of the players to create beneficial effects while the GM wants to create detrimental effects. I'm not sure how to reconcile that in a tactical or gamey-game way. That may be by design (I'll let Colin speak up if he's willing).

There's also no formal procedure for GMs hiding/revealing elements through play. We'll need to experiment.

So give this a read and see if it makes sense enough to use in play. Thanks guys!

---

And the cribsheet itself is attached here as a PDF.

p.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1250897183|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Looking good.

I do not agree with…

Spending a Complication this way means the character does not suffer the usual instantaneous ill effect.

Just because you're tying in a Complication with a Trigger element doesn't mean it's not still a complication. It still has to be detrimental to the character. But the complication "moderate wounds" is vague enough that you can tie that into almost any Reveal. Likewise with the other example Complications. You're not spending Complications like cash, you're giving them flavor through the Trigger. The Triggers are there to give you and the players nudges to your creativity.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1250898982|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

That's what I thought as well, but the text seems to contradict it. :-/ Check out p.124, 4th graf:

"Players will often find that the Complication approach is not the way they prefer. As described in the next section, when players take Complications the GM can use them to create Story Triggers that make life harder for the characters. They won't suffer the usual instantaneous ill effects from that Complication; instead the GM will be creating a kind of Sword of Damocles that hangs over your character, just waiting for the final Complication to bring it into play."

So…at the very least that seems to be referring to converting Complications into altered Elements.

Also, I can't actually find the section he's talking about "in the next section." :-/

At first I thought that it was the fictional effect of the Complication that caused an Element to become altered or activated. And that would be cool and fine! But the paragraph above got me thinking that perhaps the Complication math was instead a math game — the player gets a Twist but the GM decides that the Complication *is* the altered Story Element. See what I mean?

(Oh hey, thanks for actually responding!)

p.

Re: Story Triggers

Pilgrim 1250956254|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

FWIW, I find this useful. Triggers are the bit I have the most trouble with.

Re: Story Triggers

Colin_Fredericks 1250973340|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I think the "next section" comment is a remnant from a previous edit. :(

It basically works like this:

• Player needs Twist to entrance the space-pope with her beauty.
• Player has no Twist.
• Player takes Complication to get Twist and uses it.
• GM looks at Complication and says, "Ok, you entrance the space-pope. Meanwhile, elsewhere in the universe…"

If you've played Truth & Justice, this is similar to when someone punches Spider-Man and he takes the hit on his Mary Jane Watson Is My Girlfriend stat instead of his Proportionate Strength Of A Spider ability. Maybe the damage you take makes you limp and miss the bus to her house. Maybe the damage and the reason for the bad relationship are totally unrelated. Either way, Peter Parker keeps using up Twists like there's no tomorrow and now he's all retconned to hell and…um… this analogy went on a bit too far, I think.

You get the idea. (maybe?)

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251046028|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Yup, that was my (final) understanding of using the Complication. Rather than inserting the fiction for the Complication into the character's immediate timeline, it touches the long-term fiction attached to the story trigger. Got it.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251062952|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Oi! I missed that.

But…

So I think you meant " at the very least that seems to be referring to converting Complications into new Triggers."

Right??

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251142967|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Nope, not at all (not sure if I needed to reply to this but I am just to tie up loose discussion threads). If GMs can create Triggers at any time for any reason, then there's no mechanical need to express a Complication as a new trigger. However, a Complication is the GM's only available economy for altering an Element. It puts the GM and player in a somewhat competitive stance, which I think may be good for the play dynamic.

I guess I'll find out this Thursday!

p.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251215457|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Except there's an economy problem there.
If I create a new Trigger based on your entrancement of the pope without "paying" for it, and still you take a complication effect, it can seem like I'm picking on you. You get double dipped in shit.

Yet, it is true that GMs can create Triggers at anytime for free.

I think Colin's intent was to have Character-specific Triggers be payed for with Complications to avoid the double-dip.

Colin???

« pause. intensive read. »

Now I really wish I had been available as a beta reader for the manual.
Okay, IM(NS)HO, the text of pg 124, paragraph 4 should probably read:

When players take Complications the GM can use them to create Story Triggers that make life harder for the characters, or alter extant Story Triggers to be more detrimental to the Characters.

I think that addresses what we've hashed out. What did I miss?

Also, from Nitpick Corners, there are verbage problems with "activate", which is used to refer both to Trigger Elements and whole Triggers on pg 124. Paragraph 8 should probably say:

It is impossible to activate the Lever of an incomplete Story Trigger. (emphasis mine)

Reveals of an incomplete Trigger can be activated.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251326262|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hm. I'm not persuaded that graf 4 should read that way. Then it sounds like the GM needs a complication to create a trigger. I thought we'd concluded that GMs can make a full trigger whenever they wanted to (thus also taking care of your economic problem above — if the GM doesn't have any economic constraints on making whole-cloth triggers, then who cares?).

Graf 8: Hm. I don't see how activating the Reveal of an incomplete trigger is kosher. Like, what if the Lever isn't in place yet? Since activating the Reveal reveals both the Secret and the Lever to the characters, that's obviously impossible if it doesn't even exist yet.

My sense is that requiring the whole trigger be in place before either the Reveal or the Lever can be activated is largely a player-level timing thing: the players need full information on what they're getting into before getting into it (or have faith that the whole trigger is in place, if we're talking about a GM-built trigger with hidden elements).

I'm playtesting this craziness tomorrow. I'll report back!

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251380795|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Re: graf 8 — yeah, that's a good point. So how about…

It is impossible to activate any element of an incomplete Story Trigger.

That totally seems safe and reasonable.

Re: graf 4 — Yeah, but if we're revising… I'm saying the GM only needs a complication to create a specific kind of Trigger. Only generic Triggers should be totally free. My point was that making Triggers totally free in all cases does not take care of the fucking-with-players economy. It creates a potential problem. Allowing the GM to freely create Triggers directly linked to Characters may (and I stress may) reduce the feeling of player agency that the game works so hard to build. I stress may, because it depends on the GM's good graces. Having played with Colin, I know it would never be a problem in his game. That's also why Colin wouldn't have thought to specify in the rules. My suggestion is to limit the reliance on good graces, removing the game one more step from Mother May I.

Perhaps, though, the only real need is for a sentence gently suggesting the GM show temperance when creating character-specific Triggers in conjunction with events surrounding Complications. That's more in keeping with the style of the manual and Colin's style of coaching.

But it still bothers me that a GM has to pay to change a part of an extant Trigger to be detrimental to the Characters, but he can freely create a whole new one to do so. Seems broken.

Re: Story Triggers

Colin_Fredericks 1251383493|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Guys, think of it this way:

Creating free Story Triggers is a way for GMs to take the things that GMs already do anyway, and put it into game terms so the players can screw with it.

Not all Triggers should be detrimental to the PCs, any more than all plots in a game are. Those created through Complications should be detrimental, because that's what Complications are all about.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251392849|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Right, Colin, I'm totally on-board with that.

Making Triggers = what GMs do anyway, but formalized a bit so the players can touch it before it touches the fiction.

Altering Trigger Elements = another path to resolve Complications in a way that, uh, complicates the characters' lives.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251395320|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Creating free Story Triggers is a way for GMs to take the things that GMs already do anyway, and put it into game terms so the players can screw with it.

Yeah, I know that. It's what I've been trying to get at.

Not all Triggers should be detrimental to the PCs, any more than all plots in a game are. Those created through Complications should be detrimental, because that's what Complications are all about.

Absolutely. I had wanted to make that point myself.

I see now where my problem lies. I got confused into thinking of Complications as money.
It's not that I need a twist, so I hand you a dollar and you use it to buy a Trigger.
If Complications arise, the GM has to work them in. Period. He can do it immediately, or he can make it a delayed complication through the use of a Trigger. He can either create a new Trigger or alter an existing one. There is no economy. It's just that things get complicated.

I knew this, but somehow I lost sight of it.

Aren't forums awesome?

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251395475|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

FRAWRESS VICTOLY

Re: Story Triggers

Colin_Fredericks 1250972580|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The crib sheet looks pretty good. I like the way you explain the various elements.

I'm trying to figure out a better way to explain the scope, because I feel like it should have something to do with depth of impact as well as breadth. I think of the level of an element as something similar to a "psychohistorical inertia rating," with a higher rating indicating something that's harder to change for one reason or another.

In my mind, GMs never created new elements on existing triggers - they made new triggers (either complete or missing pieces), or altered existing ones, but they don't Voltron elements together the way that the players do. Yes, Voltron is a verb now.

You're right that there's no formal methods or procedures for most of this. Unless I have a good reason for nailing something down I prefer to leave it up to individual group/GM choice.

I appreciate you taking the time to hammer on this stuff; it always makes my games better when people work them hard.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251046500|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Two things:

• Let's hash out breadth and depth of working out an element's rank. I have a feeling that a Core Value should always be invoked, and that the CV is how you calibrate the depth. So like you COULD have a scope 1/CV10 effect element — ex: a Stored character with a Core Value of "life" at 10 could create an Effect like "My individual digital persona is declared a unique life form by the Transcendents" or something. So basically it's (personal) about (life). That would of course also require we sketch out in more detail what different levels of CV mean to Story Triggers. I took a quick look at the roleplaying guidelines of CVs and couldn't quite map it to triggers.

• I'm going to clarify in a v1.2 of the document that GMs always create complete Story Triggers. I think that's a useful bit of clarity.

Thanks all!

p.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251063130|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In my mind, GMs never created new elements on existing triggers - they made new triggers (either complete or missing pieces), or altered existing ones, but they don't > Voltron elements together the way that the players do.

So are you saying GMs should not add new Reveals to a Trigger, or just that it hadn't occurred to you it would be necessary?
I'm also confused (maybe) as to why a GM would create Triggers with missing pieces. Just so the players have something to modify? Or could the GM later fill out the incomplete Trigger?

Re: Story Triggers

Colin_Fredericks 1251076913|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm also confused (maybe) as to why a GM would create Triggers with missing pieces. Just so the players have something to modify? Or could the GM later fill out the incomplete Trigger?

Yeah, either of those. Sometimes I have such a good incomplete idea that it's worth putting down in writing so that I or someone else can add to the awesome later on.

Re: Story Triggers

QHudspeth 1251063669|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

nless I have a good reason for nailing something down I prefer to leave it up to individual group/GM choice.

Yeah, one of the things I like about the system. But I think Paul's right here, especially in regards to creating a Trigger off a Complication. We could at least use some guidelines for doing that, which will be mostly on the fly. Let's take the entranced pope example. Okay, I want to make a new Trigger for our player, but there are so many ways to do that if you don't have to tie it to the current scene that it can be daunting for the GM. Creating that new Trigger based at least on the Character's CVs seems like a great guideline. Still not limiting enough, maybe. But then, maybe I'm just pre-panicking¹. A suggestion that the new Trigger be somehow linked to the CVs and the current scene might be better. Then again, maybe that's just what people would tend to do anyway if left alone.

Q

¹ Why is panic spelled without a k, but panicking isn't? Sometimes I hate english.

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251142674|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So my current thinking on Trigger guidelines — establishing breadth and depth to Elements — is this:

Use the Theme you're invoking to establish the breadth (how big an area is impacted), and how it will be impacted — Magnetism will produce political events, Comprehension will produce breakthroughs, etc.

Designate a Core Value on the table. If it's the GM, it can be anyone's CV (but it has to be on the table, to help ensure that the game remain character-focused). If it's a player doing it, it's one of his own CVs. The CV's rank = the depth of the effect. So like at the very low end — 1 or 2 — the depth is a very minor change, more an alteration.

So like if the "established fiction" you're aiming to change is, say…the relationship between the Replicants and the Stored, at 1 or 2 your effect could be "The Replicants and Stored escalate to the brink of conflict."

And in the middle you could make an actual change to the established fiction: "The Replicants and Stored go to war." It's not changing the fact that they're at odds, it's just escalating that fact to its next step.

And at the top (9 or 10), then you can go apeshit: "The Replicants and Stored come to terms with their differences, with Replicants offering widespread ghost meshing to Stored who want to return to the analog world and the Stored offering digital settlement space for Replicants who want to upload."

I think the mental gymnastics comes from mapping the Theme, the Theme's Rank, the CV, and the CV's rank into one bit of awesome. Probably hard to do on the fly in a systematic way. Probably improves with practice.

p.

last edited on 1251143040|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover by Paul Beakley + show more

Re: Story Triggers

Paul Beakley 1251395387|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

So my first go at trying to map Core Value ranks to the "depth" of a Story Trigger's Element ended in disaster. Basically the function of each trigger is too hard to map with any consistency — what does it mean to alter a Secret in context with a high or low Core Value? What does it mean to create a Lever with a high or low Core Value? That's the stuff I'm chewing on right now. I don't think it'll be done in time for tonight, but it's on my mind. Taking ideas!