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I just realized a potential issue with the portrayal of the Cult of the Empty Grave. If Properly aspected Mana is a human right for them, wouldn't they need access to a broad spectrum of types of land to get the mana and people with different mana aspects to provide it instead of them all living in death aspected wastelands? It'd probably be a mess to get a diverse mana portfolio entirely by trading.

Edit: That or they might need say… very good mana conversion infrastructure. Which might break the settings economy if something like that was widespread.

Edit2: Another question. Does Oneiromancy's ephemeralness still apply in the dream world's or are things like Oneiromantic Fire real in there?

Edit3: What happens to somebody's mystical signature if they lose their soul?

Edit4: I'm thinking about mind and soul still. For there to be an afterlife implies souls need consciousness to experience it. But for the soul to be the source of consciousness would imply soul loss causing death or persistent vegetative state. So the question is how does one create a being that can function without a soul yet who will experience an afterlife through their soul. My first thought is a metaphysical version of RAID 1 Mirroring using the soul to body mystical connection. If the soul is lost consciousness endures in the brain. If the body is lost a separate copy of the consciousness remains in every fragment of the soul to make resurrection possible with a fragment. This is seamless because RAID 1 mirrored consciousness is the natural state for souled beings.

It makes souls a quantized thing. Every quanta has a separate copy of the body's consciousness and mystical signature.

Edit5: There may be an ethical or philosphical question in there somewhere. I'm not sure. Like. I know soul destruction is impossible in this setting, but imagine soul destruction is something else. If a quanta of your soul is destroyed, and each quanta of your soul has a full copy of your consciousness in a metaphysical RAID 1 array, has somebody died?

Edit6: This RAID1 Setup also suggests production of Eclipse Phase style Alpha forks is a metaphysical possibility, though they need to diverge, their souls need to grow over time for them to match their originating consciousness.

Edit7: The fact that souls grow back implies soul quantas self replicate, but stop at a certain threshold.

So my minds been on things like magical public services, magical plumbing, etc. Like… how do people get their water without actually going to a body of water? You need a lake or an ocean or really humid weather or something as a starting point because presumably you need water mana. Then you get a stockpile of water, whether by conjuring or just getting water out of the lake/river. You bring that to your house and store it. Then when you need water, you can conjure as much as your stockpile will sustain. Then you need to let more water mana percolate into your stockpile. You can bootstrap yourself to an arbitrary amount of water that way.

Am I understanding mana correctly? That in the age of the gift, what's actually on a piece of land is only portion of the lands actual value, what it does to the local mana is just as important? Like a lake gives you a reliable source of water mana and a means to bootstrap yourself to an arbitrary amount of water, or how public libraries/book repositories are easy sources of knowledge mana/help people conjure things they need to access universal repos, even if people can just connect to a universal repo by visiting a classroom or getting a quill pen or a scroll or something.

Edit: If Leyline fractures connect to houses, I imagine houses with them might have something like an "Aspecting room" where the leyline meets the house. You put different things in there to influence the mana aspect so you can conjure different things.

I just realized that the right counterevent at the right point could create a zone where neither event actually happened per the "Space is the carrier of events principle". It was meant for Gravity manipulation and I have no idea if this is awesome, a grievous oversight, or what the full implications are.

The Worldbuilders Chronal Terraforming sat strangely with me, and seemed like it thematically clashed with Necromancy. Because of this, I thought I'd attempt to make another fount capable of handling those Necromantic techniques, heavily inspired by Tales of Maj'Eyal and Worm(Also Relativity and of course, the concept of eternal recurrence). Given all the questions and probing and shower thoughts I have given the other founts, I will be very surprised if this holds up to scrutiny, but here it is.

Chronomancy/Paradox

Universal Repository: The Compressed Echoes
Immortality Flaw: A chronomancer must be killed in multiple timelines simultaneously by the same person, with the same weapon.

Principles:

1. Power Arises from Contradiction: Remove the stablizing element, make things not make sense, and reality becomes flexible(Principle of Explosion, https://xkcd.com/704/)
2. Space is the Carrier of Events: The truth of an event is determined by Proximity. Events can be made more or less signficant, causing different forms of spatial distortion.
3. Time is like an ever branching Rubber Band: Decisions Made in one timeline can be stretched into other timelines(You don't want to be there when it snaps though). Time can be made to loop upon itself. Causality is only a polite suggestion.
4. Eternal Recurrence: What happened before will happen again, for eternity. Change is simultaneously true and illusory.
5. All Souls are One: Every soul can speak to the souls of others in a way they cannot ignore.

Manifestations(These owe a significant debt to Worm and the Temporal Warden/Paradox Mage from Tales of Maj'Eyal):

1. Gravity Manipulation
2. Selective Property Overlays/Colocation/Chevalier's Power from Worm
3. Retrieval of Structures from the Past.
4. Time Clones(Future Selves, Alternate Universe Counterparts, Etc.)
5. Time Dilation(Year inside is an hour outside, etc.)
6. Attacks flowing backwards in time.
7. Time Skips(Like that episode of Futurama)
8. Simultaneous Actions(Like Tsubame Gaeshi/Sasaki Kojiro's Noble Phantasm, for those familiar with the Nasuverse)
9. Precognition
10. Hung Spells
11. Coil's Power from Worm/Multiple Timelines choose 1/Save Scumming
12. Echoing Afterimages
13. Dimensionally Exotic Weapons
14. Time Loops.
15. Unpredictable Temporal Anomalies

Unique Abilities(I'm suspecting 2,3, or 4 should be removed but am unsure which one):

1. Temporal Borrowing: Chronomancers with Communion 3+ are Eligible for Polymath
2. Mana Endurance: Chronomancers can borrow mana from other timelines. When others lose points of Nature in Null Zones, Chronomancers lose one less point.
3. Temporal Split: A Chronomancer may conduct an additional ritual at a time, so long as the ritual is thematically or conceptually opposed to a ritual the Chronomancer has in progress.
4. Sapient Mystic Defenders: Mystic Defenders and Servitors made by a Chronomancer have the full natures and professions of their summoner

Limited Techniques:

Mystical Defenders: Mystical Defenders/Servitors are not obligated to obey a Chronomancer's commands

Unique:

Temporal Snapback/Anomalies: Represent this with the Worst Enemy Rule.

Here's a few Tremendous Mana resurrection implications I was able to think of.

1. Benevolent Mana-aspected land is high value, it's one of the big aspects economically speaking, like treachery/deception.
2. Some Soulpact group somewhere might want to make large amounts of the Basin benevolent mana aspected for a mass resurrection project. If they're sufficiently radical they wouldn't care about the current residents of those lands objections.
3. There might be benevolent mana drives somewhere as I brought up in the past.
4. Resurrection is high enough effort for death to have some meaning. You need benevolence aspected leylines, benevolence aspected lands, or massive stored amounts of benevolent mana to start. Then you need someone who's presumably Communion 5/Self 5 willing to work 24 hours straight to resurrect a single person.
5. Benevolence Mana aspected people can probably get good money(however that works in the basin) for their mana if they can make themselves ask for compensation. People like them.

Edit: Unrelated to my ponderances on resurrection, treachery mana aspected people are probably held in significant but conflicted regard for their ability to contribute to magical infrastructure.

Edit2: Sovereigns and Geometers probably have poor access to people who can resurrect others.

Does the Conjuring living beings from samples on page 81 extend to sapients such as humans? I suspect from page 89 that you could create a soulless clone body from a sample.

Yup, that exactly.

Enchantment, Page 85, strongest tradition, how is that defined? Point value? Average of top two natures?

I guess I'd go with average of top two.

Energy Wave, Page 86 references "chi", as opposed to the "ki" on page 65.

I suppose I'll normalize that.

Healing, Any thoughts on spelling out that Communion 6 healing on page 88 requires tremendous mana to get rid of that potential point of ambiguity?

I always forget that the mana cost of healing continues to rise. I need to think more about the implications for having resurrection cost tremendous amounts of mana.

Page 88 suggests fate might exist. Is that reserved for if people are pulling in Chronotech stuff for predictive psychometry and such?

It's a fairly standard thing in a lot of magical worlds, so I figured I'd leave it in rather than explicitly saying it doesn't exist. If people really want to dig into the concept, Chronotech will definitely be a useful reference.

Page 89 has an odd bit: "If the body is still mostly intact and not actually dead, and the soul is bound to a new body, the old body may still live with a rudimentary intelligence and is a very likely target for possession." Does this mean that if somebody steals your soul, and binds it to another body, that reduces you to that rudimentary intelligence? Perhaps due to residual mystic connections your soul has with your body(even if separated) being severed? Or do you just have a sudden consciousness switch to your new body?

I think I was imagining cases of brain-death, but I may just have been a little sleepy. :) I'll reword this some.

Immortality, Does Page 90's "Or more likely ask a friend for help" seem odd when you can be a floating head and reattach yourself or is that just me?

Not everyone's head gets to float. :)

The Invocation immortality flaw on page 90 is an example of the fount being overly tied into patrons for if/when you revise the fount.

Good catch. For now let's just keep it the same and remove the patron reference.

Do you plan on refining the Necromancy immortality flaw on page 90 to clarify the definition of holy materials?

I think it's ok as-is.

The immortality flaws are somewhat humanocentric, I've realized. I have no idea how to improve things here either. For the Alchemy fount, what of energy beings that might not have blood, for example? What of elementalists that communicate via telepathy and have no mouth? What organ does one remove from the All-Blue-Eye? This somewhat fits with the "It is really, really, hard to kill people in this game. In general you're better off not trying", however.

Gotta get inventive. Killing a fire elemental who uses Arete? Steal some of their fire and warp it into a void-flame of death. Killing a giant eye who uses Glory? Take out its lens.

If you were recovering from complete bodily destruction, could you still cast with belief or discipline(mind) as page 91 suggests?

Will add note.

Mana Analysis - On page 92, how much mana is it to do distance mana analysis? Is it short range(free)/distance(minimal) or is it perhaps short range(minimal)/distance(low)?

I'll leave this up to the GM.

Mana Shell Game - Do Wild Mages need Deception/Treachery Mana from someone who isn't them(Or chaos mana as a substitute) to do the aspect mixing from page 95? It seems like that might make them use a lot of it. Same thing with the industry based applications of the Mana Shell game. Do those need deception/treachery mana from an external source? If so, unruly lands having problems with Treachery aspected mana benefit the larger civilizations.

Wild mages might already have some of that collected. And yes, your analysis of the mana pollution issue is correct.

Mystic Defenders/Servitors - Using Mystic Defenders to get teamwork bonuses seems like a good application

Yup!

Psychometry - Page 97, "The crime rate in most of the Basin is rather lower because of this", seems somewhat awkwardly phrased.

Will reword.

Not sure what your angle is on making Archetypal a Necromancy thing too, along with Glory/Oneiromancy, but wherever you go with that, the Practice and Parelthonia have examples that can be construed as archetype channeling. Practice's Talecarving and Parelthonia's ancestor portrait tracing.

Edit; Also it may be a bit odd for two thirds of the supernatural expertise(Polymath and Archetypal, assuming Satori is for everyone and Prodigy/Virtuoso is removed) to be gated behind specific founts.

I missed 2 versions while I prepped for upgrade and go-live?
Time to see about printing and reading.
Thanks Colin!

They're definitely still culturally created. One culture's "sheepiest sheep" might be piled high with fluffy wool and glowing with holy light, while another's might be dirty and nasty and ragged and mean as hell.

Invited Possession will probably be the gateway to both Archetypal and Polymath. If you're possessed by one very powerful and/or well-known spirit that's Archetypal; if you have a horde of ghosts each waiting to lend their talents that's Polymath.

So the platonic forms Earthpower goes into with Grow the Canon are as much psychological constructs as everything else, making your desire to avoid Platonic realism still a thing?

I asked if you wanted to clarify because I thought you were going into territory you were averse to going into. The rest was just meant as a list of potential things the introduction of Archetypal might effect to keep in mind.

Edit: Like how can invited possession make you Archetypal if the Necromancy Fount's invited possession makes you a polymath? Different Spirits?

Edit2: Or how Fount principles make Archetypes into Glory and Oneiromancy's hat.

Edit3: Or how the current magic setup seems to favor Trickery as the gateway stat to Archetypal as opposed to Communion/Mystery for polymath. You want to go that road or do you want something different?

Unknown Armies definitely had an influence on the archetype ideas in this game, not that they're super-well-developed yet.

I may or may not keep Virtuoso around. (Or Prodigy, if I take Pilgrim's suggestion above.) We'll see in playtests whether people find enough of a difference between the two.

Earthpower's Grow the Canon ability does sort of mix archetypes in with other canon forms, in that people often have an idea of what "the sheepiest sheep" or "this rock is the most rock out of all the rocks I've seen" means. They might not be as codified as the archetypes you'd use for the Archetypal Expertise, but they're in the same conceptual space (metaphorically speaking). Does that help?

Learning Traditions like that making you unable to do nature 2 Traditionless casting… It seems like the kind of thing that makes belief and discipline(mind) casters into uniquely powerful paths. They can still do the floating head thing if they get decapitated. Anyone else would need some kind of persistent flight/telekinesis augmentation.

Edit: The rest seems fine and I haven't realized any interesting implications.

The profession capabilities of mystic servitors weren't quite what I was focusing on sorry. Still seems like a good idea to clarify that like you did though.

Industry 3 in the current release lets you make 1 mystic servitor that stays near you. At Industry 2, how many mystic servitors can you make, and how much independence do they have? I don't see how you can get weaker than 1 mystic servitor that stays near you.

I like it.
It fits the fantasy vibe SsA well.

Edit: I'd retain Virtuoso in addition to Archetypal but maybe change the name to Prodigy or Savant.

No, sorry - I meant that regardless of what level of Industry you make them with (2+), they've got Industry 1.

There's a second blank slot on Prismatic Wash of Joy in Saffron's core values on page 44.

Will fix.

for effects that are not loud, someone with a higher trickery score than you can conceal their casting

Should say "someone whose Trickery is higher than your Mystery".

I'm gonna say they count for the moment.

On page 55, "Morals that paint more of themselves", do you mean murals?

Yup.

Page 60 mentions Alchemy as a fount with Transmutation abilities, but it's not included in the Alchemy Fount's unique abilities

Hmm. Yes, should definitely add that.

Page 62's Revise the Canon currently has "Objects that exist in the world typically do not typically"

Huh. As soon as I figure out what the hell I meant I'll fix that. (Edit: Figured it out. "do not typically change to match the Canon.")

Is the humor rebalancing on page 62 indicative of the 4 humors theory being accurate in this setting or is it just paradigm/path fluff meant as a focus for intent?

Just paradigm fluff.

How do the Unique Alchemy fount abilities on page 62 fit with Signature vs Consensus Canon? Does an Alchemists signature canon extend beyond their body? Do they cause local disruptions in the consensus canon?

The latter.

Page 65, how does Arete shapeshifting restrictions interact with self 2 traditionless shapeshifting? As it is it only seems like a restriction on advanced shapeshifting, considering self 2 traditionless shapeshifting.

Traditionless shapeshifting at Self 2 would normally let you turn into a handful of natural animals from your homeland. If your instinctive magic is more like Arete, you'd be taking on their capabilities rather than turning into them. Or did I miss the question?

Page 66 mentions speaking to the world as an example of Earthpower.

I'll leave it to individual GMs whether they want to say that the world-spirit is Aum or is separate from it.

Earthpower's inablity to open the red space per page 67. It basically means somebody just can't make their own personal Red Space if they only have Trickery 4 in an Earthpower tradition, considering they can just open the red space without using a tradition at trickery 2, is this intentional, did you want a restriction with more teeth, or am I underestimating how much of a restriction being unable to make your own personal red space is?

Ohh, now I get what you were asking about from the Shapeshifting question.

Having a Tradition in SsA isn't as strong a thing as having a Paradigm in Mage, but it's a big deal. Once you codify your magic, you don't do things without that approach. It's like… learning how to actually do math instead of just instinctively figuring out the answers to questions, or learning a fighting style instead of just throwing haymaker after haymaker. Even when the haymaker might be more effective, you're a boxer now and you box.

Page 68, "Altering the physical world can evoke changes the mental world" seems like it forgot a word.

To.

There are founts that mention manifestations that don't seem particularly distinctive

The lists of manifestations aren't intended to be exclusive, just evocative. It's just there to help people describe their magic. I'll add a note for that.

This one's actually some questions. Considering the Stuff in the Nature Listings and Technology examples aren't intended to be exhaustive, and the necessity of professional training to properly build a bridge with magic…

1. Would you say a characters professions shape what expressions of their natures they're capable of(Except Traditionless nature 2 casting of course)?
2. How does something like the healer profession relate to the tiers of communion healing?

Edit: It seems like this would make Polymath overpowered, if professions shaped expression. The kind of thing that might cause problems for Geometers/Those Above the Sky given they can't make Polymaths.

Edit2: Unrelated question, did Aum refund the costs surviving pre-gift wizards paid to learn magic?

Wait a minute. Mystic Servitors at Industry 1? Normal People can make them?

All of that sounds good, and that guideline makes things clearer, assuming you intend to keep Warding as a part of the War nature.

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