Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

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Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 30 Jul 2019 21:41

It's been a while. Work has been busy, and I've been doing a lot of volunteering recently, and I'm in a difficult spot in terms of design.

The ideas in the Path, Fount, and Tradition thread were a definite improvement on the "everyone does everything" approach, but they brought up a few problems. For instance:

• What happens when a civilization that does Energy Waves without spending reserve goes to war against one with no War techniques in their standard set? Does every civ need to have one technique from each Nature in their set?
• Why can some cultures access the Travel lattice easily and others can't? Especially if it's not keyed to Fount or Path?

While I was pondering this (and also considering removing a few of the current Technologies/Expressions), I realized that there were kind of three categories of magic in the game:

• Some of them are ubiquitous. Not as universal as Becoming or mind-control immunity, but ubiquitous in the sense that every Tradition has a way to do them. Conjuration is one of these. Spirit-walking is another. Everyone's is a bit different, but everyone's got some equivalent to them.
• Some of them are exclusive. These are things that only one or two Founts are capable of. Only Necromancy and Glory can call souls from the afterlife. Only Earthpower really deals with plants and animals.
• Some of them are actually technologies constructed by ancient civilizations and available to the present because they haven't deteriorated yet. Travel, the Red Space, and Universal Repositories are all examples of this. These should be available to everyone because they were designed to be.

I don't necessarily have anywhere I'm going with this yet, but it was a divide that hadn't quite crystallized in my mind yet, and one that might be useful.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 31 Jul 2019 06:12

Ouch. My current line of thought is on how to adapt the material in David Friedman's Legal Systems Very Different from ours, so that people can get some idea of what living in a Brightgarden Schema derived legal system actually means. For example, there's been a recurring concept across the chapters for Saga-Period Iceland, Somali Law, Early Irish Law, of a group that helps its members make restitution payments and assists in collecting them from others. Kinship basis for membership is apparently quite common, though Iceland had something called the … go[accented character that looks like an o or a d]or[same accented character], that operated on a less kinship focused basis as well. Future usages of the term will be spelled godoro.

[quote]
The godoro itself was two different things. It was a group of men - the particular men who had agreed to follow that godi, to be members of that godoro. Any man could be challenged to name his godoro and was required to do so, but he was free to choose any godi within his quarter who would have him and to change to a different godoro at will(but only at a particular time in the year)
[/quote]

Saga period iceland was apparently divided into geographic quarters, for clarification as to what quarter means in this context.

I'm seeing potential for a correspondence between godoros and city states here given what I've currently read.

What happens when a civilization that does Energy Waves without spending reserve goes to war against one with no War techniques in their standard set?: The Obvious answer is that they lose in a straight fight, due to fighting being a bigger metaphysical pain in the you know what for them compared to their adversary. So unless they fled/hid/went Peacewalker/had some method X justifying their continued existence, a civilization without war techniques would probably have been annihilated in the interregnum.

Also I like this new taxonomy and the fact you were thinking about the travel grid, because needing to spend reserve for it seemed well… I don't know. Part of me wonders if civilizations having some metaphysical difficulty with the travel grid is Interregnum-OK(drawing from Exalted's concept of Usurpation-OK here). It might not fully run into something like that, but it might run partially?

Last edited on 31 Jul 2019 06:14 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 31 Jul 2019 13:05

Clarification.

Interregnum-OK: Could a civilization built like this mechanically, that did what it did historically, have plausibly survived the interregnum?

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 05 Aug 2019 01:18

I've got the Constructed list from the Great Wonders thread. How about Universal? What should go on that list?

• People with just the universal list should be able to compete in all types of conflict. They shouldn't be steamrolled by someone with an exclusive power.
• If there are types of story that I definitely want to show up in the game, nothing on the universal list should immediately make them null and void.
• … I'm not sure I really need any guidelines other than that.

The list so far: Becoming*, Immortality*, Translation*, Enchantment*, Conjuration, Spirit-walking, Warding, and Servitors, I think? Should probably have a small number of other things here too.

Items with a * are truly universal. No one pays a cost to learn them, either in-game or metagame.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 05 Aug 2019 05:38

Musings on powers based on the standard you proposed on a Civilization scale(Could a civilization with just the universal list plausibly survive participating in the interregnum, things like that) and drawn from the big list I made earlier. I think I may have too many universalization candidates and I'm not done(10 so far). Here's A through L. I bolded the clear candidates for universalization. There's ones that seem like they may be part of a set though and a civilization needs at least one of them to not be utterly curbstomped in a conflict category. Not currently sure what to do about those.

Edit: Don't know if you've seen this before now, but I realized Dimensional Monitoring was a less strong universalization candidate than I thought, if a civilization has access to travel grid interdiction instead. One of them is important to not get curbstomped by something like a surprise attack from the travel grid. That's an example set from the category I was talking about earlier.

---

Alternate Personality Cultivation("Create a new persona with its own
Core Values that you can temporarily
assume while you subsume your own."): Could theoretically be used to create sleeper agents, evade core value scanning. Potential value for spy plots and espionage conflicts. Will a Civilization without this be steamrolled by somebody that does? I don't know, but suspect they'd have lower capacity for human intelligence compared to their adversary. Maybe it could be made up for by Signals Intelligence/Divination/Scrying if something in that territory is universal?

Archetype Channeling(Archetypal Expertise): There's stuff like Polymath, Photographic Experience, and people can still learn the old fashioned way, but a civilization without any of the abilities in this ballpark may have issues getting as many competent people as a civilization that does. Full implications of that are beyond my ability to confidently weigh in on.

Artful Conjuration("When art-magi conjure things from the Canon of Form, they can create works
of art (to the extent of their skills) and embellish ordinary objects with artistic flourishes as they
desire."): Necessary for the exceedingly specific conflict of an Artistic Conjuration Contest. Whether or not a conflict that specific is worth making it universal I have no idea.

Astral Projection("Detach your soul so that it can
spirit-walk (including to the Worlds
Beyond) while you rest in meditation."): If you add in the Travel Grid from the Constructed List, it's still possible to do things in the worlds beyond without this. Also you're thinking about universal spirit-walking. I'm not sure people are losing out on much if this isn't Universal.

Attack Chaining("Chain deadly attacks through multiple foes."): There's AOE Energy Waves, a civilization without either of these may have to make up for this by producing magical weapons that can. Depending on what conjuration and craftspeople can and can't do, it's not an utter steamroll if a civilization doesn't have either of these.

Attack Redirection("Take blows meant for nearby allies."): Enables Tanking in the MMO Sense. Lots of ways not having this can be made up for. Ridonkulous regeneration. Everyone being able to dodge, etc.

Canon Manipulation(Alchemy Fount): You'd need a very specific kind of scenario for lack of this to end in a steamroll. Sabotage the enemies stockpile of good X they need for purpose Y then use Canon manipulation so the only replacement good they can make can't be used for purpose Y because they can't counter-manipulate. Then they get overrun. Somehow. I don't know.

Cognitive Self-Editing("Alter your instincts, changing
your fight-or-flight responses.", "Alter your own core values at will")): A military unit that resorts to this could negate morale as a battlefield factor for them. Which would be a powerful advantage. On the other hand, it would probably seriously fark you up psychologically to edit yourself like that so not everybody did it. Mystic Defender/Servitor support, which is universal, might come in handy so you don't get psyched out fighting a group like that because your servitors are doing the job. Bury them under mindless automatons, with a sufficiently skilled minion commander and regular troops this wouldn't be a curbstomp.

Conjuration Material Substitution(Adapt the Canon for elementalism): I can't see anything that would lead to people getting curbstomped because they don't have this

Contingent Spellcasting("'Hang' a spell so that it will go off under
a particular condition, if you have the
power for it at that time"): Depending on the precise details of how something like this works, this could be powerful enough to be worth making universal.

Core Value Scanning("Read
Core Values during Rapport or with a
few minutes of interaction"): A useful tool for spygames, a civilization without this may have more issue detecting spies than one that can do this unless they use Trickery Disconnected people as spy-checkers. Not necessarily a curbstomp if this isn't universal.

Counter-Divination("Falsify Divinations that are done on you in person", Concealing your Attributes): Useful for spy games and blustering about just how much of a magical badass you actually are. A Civilization without this seems like it would be forced to resort to Signals Intelligence/Divination/Scrying/Mana Analysis/etc to spy on civilizations at all. Possible Universalization candidate?

Counter-Psychometry("you can hide your past
from psychometry with a short ritual.", " You can hide your past instantly from
psychometry."): Potentially useful for spy games, but the fact your doing it is presumably evident and therefore suspicious. I can't think of anything that would get people curbstomped because they don't have this.

Curse-Enhanced Attacks("Have the effects of your power linger, causing wounds that don't heal or leaving nearby mana chaotic and dangerous for days.", "You can extend the aftershocks of your power for weeks - wounds fester, the land becomes uninhabitable."): You need high war combatants to pull this off as a mitigating factor. However, two civilizations with an equal number of people with war 4 and 5, one with this power and one without, means the one without may lose via attrition. Possible Universalization candidate?

Curses("Spit curses of rage and misfortune.", "Curse your opponents with disease, debility, and calamity"): I don't know. A civilization with Curse and Energy Wave clearly beats a civilization with just one of them, but a civilization with just curses vs a civilization with just energy waves is another question.

Deception Focused Cognitive Enhancement("The most expert of sleight-of-hand and
long cons", "Find easy cons that will turn you a quick
but small profit in a few hours."): This may be bias from having read Worm with all the Thinker power fueled shenanigans but for the love of God, universalize this. Any civilization without this will probably get steamrolled by subversives from civilizations that do.

Dimensional Creation("Access the Red Space at any time by
attaching a portion of it to yourself.", "Tell a story that traps the listener in a
tiny Dream World."): Red space creation may be necessary for smugglers to do their role if they are to be a thing. I'm not sure. Dream World prisons have potential law enforcement value, depending on if they work to counter the possibility of outlaw peacewalkers(explained in the law thread here http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-10187522/sorcerously-advanced-law-in-the-great-basin#post-4322592). Not sure how easy or otherwise outlaw peacewalking is, and that's necessary to figure out if a civilization gets ravaged by this kind of scenario. Dream World Prison Creation may be a universalization candidate specifically, I'm not sure about red space creation, or whether or not I should split Dimension creation into Dream World Prison Creation and Red Space creation

Dimensional Monitoring("Sense objects stored in the Red
Space when they are hidden nearby,
though you can’t tell what they are.", "Feel when
a door to the Travel lattice is about to
open nearby.", "Feel when someone is
moving toward your location in the
Travel lattice", "Peer into the Red Space"): This can be made up for with travel grid interdiction somewhat, so this probably isn't a curbstomp if a civilization doesn't have this, assuming they can do travel grid interdiction.

Dream World Travel("Enter a Dream
World (see page xx) related to a particular
concept or ideal."): A Civilization with this cannot be meaningfully counterattacked by civilizations without this. Possible universalization candidate?

Dream Intrusion("Enter
someone’s dream if you are nearby."): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Dream Messaging(Oneiromancy's Hang the Dream Ability): A Civilization without this or Rapport may have inferior military coordination compared to a civilization that does. I'm not sure if the advantage here raises to the level of curbstomping the civilization without either of those capabilities though.

Dream Observation("Watch the dreams of nearby
individuals."): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Dreamer Attraction("Draw Sleeping participants into a Dream World with their consent"): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Elemental Immunity: Lack of this could probably be gotten around with skill in other areas.

Elemental Transportation("They can fly
as fast as they could run, are immune to their own element, and can move quickly through
appropriate carriers for that element, but cannot necessarily pass through walls"): Depending on how this works, an water energy being could seriously get around with Rivers, this could be challenging, but a person with self 5, flight, and grid access is fast too so I'm not sure people get curbstomped from not having this.

Enhanced Conjuration Quality(Glory's More than ideal ability): The higher mana needs balance this out presumably.

Enhanced Giftgiving Speed(The Unroyal's benefit): The Unroyal may have an attrition advantage compared to other civilizations, but they also have to worry about psychological differences, cohesion between them and what they uplift if they aren't giving the gift to giftless humans, and educating their uplifts, so they probably aren't using this to curbstomp people anytime soon.

Environmental Illusions("Cast a single-sense illusion for a
small object or minor sensation.", "Create two-sense
illusions your own size, including
duplicates that act like you.", "Create fully immersive illusions of
dozens of people or a large ship.", "Cast an illusion as
wide as the world on a hundred creatures
before you, or weave one the size of a
town that all can see."): Considerable Military applications. Whether or not a civilization with this curbstomps one with just the universal list, I don't know.

Exorcism("Send a departed soul to its next life."): Considering hostile ghosts can be fought the old fashioned way, I don't see how anybody can be curbstomped from not having this.

Experience Storage(" Record and store
impressions and sensory experiences for
later (or for others’ use)."): Considerable Educational value but there are other tools so if a civilization has other training tools I don't see cause for concern if they don't have this.

Fear Effects("Frighten and demoralize", "Trigger instinctual reactions like fight-or-flight", "Paralyze your foes with waves of fear." ): Another thing in the territory of militarily applicable things that don't necessarily imply a curbstomp for a civilization to not have if they have other military tools.

Flexible Conjuration Requirements("When conjuring objects from the Canon of Form, reagent-using magi can
substitute a symbolically-related type of mana for the kind that would normally be needed. One would ordinarily use fire-mana to create a burning torch, but they could also create one from a
companion's rage, or from the vision-aspect of a lens."): I can't think of how a civilization could be curbstomped from not having this.

Flight("Fly, or
otherwise cross ground and sky, at about
a hundred miles per hour.", "Fly at about thirty miles
an hour.", " Fly at hundreds of miles per hour."): A Civilization without this loses from a military logistics standpoint compared to a civilization that does, strong universalization candidate.

Grow the Canon(Earthpower fount ability): Mechanically this is a better version of the Glory Fount's power, without the temporaryness and increased mana requirements to a society that conjures that way. A shortage of esoteric effects compared to the Glory fount, or some other factor I haven't though of may balance that out though, I don't know.

Healing("Quickly
heal trivial issues like minor headaches
and stubbed toes (see page xx for more on
healing).", "Quickly heal minor problems
like bruises, cuts, and abrasions.", "Quickly heal moderate injuries like
sprains, minor concussions, and the flu.", "Quickly heal
major wounds like broken bones, severe
concussions, or deadly diseases.", "Regenerate your body from grievous
injury."): Strong Military applications, a civilization without this will probably lose to one that does, possible universalization candidate?

Hypnopraxis(Various sleep related abilities across multiple founts): Every fount has its own stuff and the dreamworlds are still reachable via other means so I don't see how lack of this could lead to a curbstomp.

Hypnotism("Slowly and obviously implant hypnotic suggestions"): I don't see how lack of this leads to a curbstomp.

Illusory Disguises("Disguise
yourself as someone specific of your
species.", "Look like someone specific of a similar species", "Look like anyone at all"): Valuable for spy games, outlaws trying to go incognito, etc. I'm not sure lack of this leads to a curbstomp though, mundane disguise is a thing too and people might not check for those kinds of tricks if they check for illusions.

Internal Mana Storage("Human bodies can store up to a moderate amount of mana; all it requires is a bit of
concentration"): I'd be very surprised if this wasn't universal.

Leyline Redirection("Redirect Ley lines"): Potentially valuable for the economic side of a conflict. But there are other venues. I'm not sure this is overly gamebreaking.

Ley Line Tapping("Tap
ley lines (see page xx) for magical power.): This seems important enough to the aspect economy to be universal.

Last edited on 05 Aug 2019 06:32 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 06 Aug 2019 00:40

I got my opinions better organized than alphabetically.

Universalization Candidates:

Contingent Spellcasting("'Hang' a spell so that it will go off under
a particular condition, if you have the
power for it at that time"): Depending on the precise details of how something like this works, this could be powerful enough to be worth making universal.

Curse-Enhanced Attacks("Have the effects of your power linger, causing wounds that don't heal or leaving nearby mana chaotic and dangerous for days.", "You can extend the aftershocks of your power for weeks - wounds fester, the land becomes uninhabitable."): You need high war combatants to pull this off as a mitigating factor. However, two civilizations with an equal number of people with war 4 and 5, one with this power and one without, means the one without may lose via attrition. Possible Universalization candidate?

Deception Focused Cognitive Enhancement("The most expert of sleight-of-hand and
long cons", "Find easy cons that will turn you a quick
but small profit in a few hours."): This may be bias from having read Worm with all the Thinker power fueled shenanigans but for the love of God, universalize this. Any civilization without this will probably get steamrolled by subversives from civilizations that do.

Musings on the Personal Scale(Referencing Cognitive Enhancement): Anyone without this is going to get scammed by someone that does beyond hope of counter, this should be universalized

Dimensional Creation("Access the Red Space at any time by
attaching a portion of it to yourself.", "Tell a story that traps the listener in a
tiny Dream World."): Red space creation may be necessary for smugglers to do their role if they are to be a thing. I'm not sure. Dream World prisons have potential law enforcement value, depending on if they work to counter the possibility of outlaw peacewalkers(explained in the law thread here http://suffadv.wikidot.com/forum/t-10187522/sorcerously-advanced-law-in-the-great-basin#post-4322592). Not sure how easy or otherwise outlaw peacewalking is, and that's necessary to figure out if a civilization gets ravaged by this kind of scenario. Dream World Prison Creation may be a universalization candidate specifically, I'm not sure about red space creation, or whether or not I should split Dimension creation into Dream World Prison Creation and Red Space creation

Dream World Travel("Enter a Dream
World (see page xx) related to a particular
concept or ideal."): A Civilization with this cannot be meaningfully counterattacked by civilizations without this. Possible universalization candidate?

Flight("Fly, or
otherwise cross ground and sky, at about
a hundred miles per hour.", "Fly at about thirty miles
an hour.", " Fly at hundreds of miles per hour."): A Civilization without this loses from a military logistics standpoint compared to a civilization that does, strong universalization candidate.

Musings on the Personal Scale(Flight): Anyone without this loses a footrace to someone who has it.

Healing("Quickly
heal trivial issues like minor headaches
and stubbed toes (see page xx for more on
healing).", "Quickly heal minor problems
like bruises, cuts, and abrasions.", "Quickly heal moderate injuries like
sprains, minor concussions, and the flu.", "Quickly heal
major wounds like broken bones, severe
concussions, or deadly diseases.", "Regenerate your body from grievous
injury."): Strong Military applications, a civilization without this will probably lose to one that does, possible universalization candidate?

Musings on the Personal Scale(Healing): Regeneration is still a powerful advantage in a 1v1 brawl.

Internal Mana Storage("Human bodies can store up to a moderate amount of mana; all it requires is a bit of
concentration"): I'd be very surprised if this wasn't universal.

Ley Line Tapping("Tap
ley lines (see page xx) for magical power.): This seems important enough to the aspect economy to be universal.

Magic detection("Noticing active spellcasting or magical effects works under the "Detecting Technology" rules
(SA2, page 95)."): This seems important enough to need universalization. Not being able to fully see what your opponent is doing seems like a major disadvantage.

Mana as Sustenance("So long as you have mana, you have
minimal need to eat, drink, or rest, and
only need to sleep a few hours a night,
though you still become hungry, tired,
thirsty, etc.", "You need only twenty minutes of sleep
each night.", "While magic flows through you, you no
longer require food, water, or rest, and
do not even feel the lack of those needs
(though you might still appreciate such
things)."): A Military with this compared to a military without this has a substantial advantage from a supply requirements standpoint. A military without this either needs some means of keeping a convenient food supply, like large reserves of food in personal red spaces, stored or acquirable mana that can be used for food conjuration, or more logistics people delivering them the food they need. Not sure this enables a civilization with Universal list + this to curbstomp a just universal list civilization in a war, but it seems like it could give a noticable advantage. Possible Universalization candidate?

Mana Obfuscation("Disguise
mana, making one aspect seem another
similar aspect."): This seems entwined enough with the mana shell game that if it gets universalized, this should be.

Musings on the personal scale(Mana Obfuscation): This is necessary for infiltrating any facility with automated mana analysis.

Mana Shell Game: The foundation for a sizable chunk of infrastructure for magical civilization. Strong universalization candidate.

Mana Storage(Is this in the body or out of the body?)("Store low
amounts of mana.", "Store Moderate Amounts of Mana", "Store large amounts of
mana."): Important enough to the aspect economy to be a universalization candidate.

Mana Transferrence("Transferring mana across long distances is done via Rapport (for one-on-one transfer) or
through ley lines (for works of infrastructure)"): A civilization without this seems like it would have an unavoidably slower economy than one that does from the need to cart around objects full of stored mana. Important enough to the aspect economy to be a universalization candidate, and the Mana shell game probably ties in here too.

Memory and Computation Focused Cognitive Enhancement("Mental "tricks"
speed calculation and improve memory.", "Create "mansions of memory" that
let you organize your thoughts and recall
anything, given enough time.", "Near-instant perfect recall."): This should be universalized, like all the other cognitive enhancement packages, given what it would do for civilizations competing academically.

Musings on the Personal Scale(Cogntitive enhancement): Anyone without this loses academic competitions to somebody that does, given equivalent motivation.

Mythical Feats of Industry("Perform mythical feats of industry, like
plowing a dozen fields in one day,
growing them to maturity on the next, and harvesting them on the third"): Civilization with this curbstomps civilization that doesn't economically, strong universalization candidate.

Musings on the Personal Scale(Mythical industry feats): Any person running a business without this may be curbstomped by competitors that do.

Nature Disconnection(Pages 28 and 29 of the character creation beta): This has counterintelligence applications, people disconnecting from trickery. I'd be surprised if this wasn't universal, but a civilization without this would need access to forms of counterintelligence relevant magic to compensate.

Personal Scale Musings(Nature Disconnection): I don't know

Physical Enhancement("Move fast, strike hard, turn blows", "Move with the swiftness of lightning and the force of an avalanche."): Seems worth universalizing. There's a point where no amount of guile can overcome a power advantage.

Personal Scale Musings(Physical Enhanchement): THis remains true on the personal scale.

Precognition("See glimpses of the future"): This may not be Worm's bullshit-tier precognition, but it seems like it should be universalized on general principle.

Personal Scale Musings(Precognition): This remains true on the personal scale. Someone who gets combat/tactically/strategically relevant precognitive flashes will win against someone who doesn't.

Protection from Deprotagonizing Effects("Ward off death magic and other
base and gross assaults.", "Remain yourself despite changes that are
wrought on you."): Seems important enough to be universalized.

Purging of Magical Effects("Shed curses and
unwanted blessings."): Seems important enough to universalize.

Social Focused Cognitive Enhancement("Fit in with
other cultures without friction", "Fit into other cultures without being
noticed", "Fit in with those who
look and act alien without friction.", "Be accepted as a member of
a completely alien species."): Strong universalization candidate.

Personal Scale Musings(Social Cognitive Enhancement): People without this will probably get steamrolled in foreign social conflicts by people that do.

Soul-Manipulation("Pin shadows into
place for soul-work.", "Bind souls (see page xx) to
bodies, objects, and places. Trade in souls.", "Steal Souls"): Soul Wards seem important enough, and the practice of tattoos applys to enough categories of magic, that this is a universalization candidate.

Soul-to-Soul Communication("Share your soul with another character to
form a Rapport", "Create a Rapport with multiple allies at
any distance.", "Single-handedly create a Rapport that
links dozens. ", Universal Repository downloading may fit here depending on how you look at it): Depending on how fast you can repo upload, lack of this isn't necessarily a curbstomp from a military communication standpoint, but among other things, it ties into the universal enchantment ability, which means this should be universal too.

Transmutation("Clean and repair small
objects if the pieces are still present.", " Repair human-sized
objects with the pieces available, or small
objects with missing pieces.", "Reassemble small houses
demolished by tornadoes", Elementalisms Fount ability): This seems important from an economic standpoint, possible universalization candidate?

War focused cognitive enhancement("Accurately determine your foe's strategies based on the barest scraps of information.", "Use your own honed battle instincts to guide your army and move them as one.", "Know your opponent's strategy before they do." ): Strong universalization candidate, like the other cognitive enhancement foci.

Personal Scale Musings(War Cognitive Enhancement): Someone with this is going to curbstomp somebody without this in a fight.

Last edited on 06 Aug 2019 01:59 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 06 Aug 2019 00:40

Sets of Powers every civilization should probably have at least one of to not get curbstomped:

Spygame Suite:

Alternate Personality Cultivation("Create a new persona with its own
Core Values that you can temporarily
assume while you subsume your own."): Could theoretically be used to create sleeper agents, evade core value scanning. Potential value for spy plots and espionage conflicts. Will a Civilization without this be steamrolled by somebody that does? I don't know, but suspect they'd have lower capacity for human intelligence compared to their adversary. Maybe it could be made up for by Signals Intelligence/Divination/Scrying if something in that territory is universal?

Core Value Scanning("Read
Core Values during Rapport or with a
few minutes of interaction"): A useful tool for spygames, a civilization without this may have more issue detecting spies than one that can do this unless they use Trickery Disconnected people as spy-checkers. Not necessarily a curbstomp if this isn't universal.

Counter-Divination("Falsify Divinations that are done on you in person", Concealing your Attributes): Useful for spy games and blustering about just how much of a magical badass you actually are. A Civilization without this seems like it would be forced to resort to Signals Intelligence/Divination/Scrying/Mana Analysis/etc to spy on civilizations at all.

Counter-Psychometry("you can hide your past
from psychometry with a short ritual.", " You can hide your past instantly from
psychometry."): Potentially useful for spy games, but the fact your doing it is presumably evident and therefore suspicious. I can't think of anything that would get people curbstomped because they don't have this.

Magical Capability Scanning("Discern magical signatures, Traditions,
and Natures."): Valuable for spy games and checking peoples power levels. Possibly compensatable for via signals intelligence.

Mana Analysis("Use mana analysis
to witness the general flow of mana in the
area, thus perceiving major recent magical
effects", "Read strong aspects of
mana.", "Witness
magical signatures when spells are cast.", "Read ley lines
(see page xx) to investigate recent events
upstream in towns and cities.", "Read subtle aspects of mana.
Perceive personal magical signatures left
in ongoing effects. ", "Read the aspects imparted on mana by
nations and cities upstream from a ley
line and track magical influences to
their source. Perceive personal magical
signatures even after an effect has ended."): Without something like this, Human intelligence expressions of mana seem necessary to compensate.

Nature Disconnection(Pages 28 and 29 of the character creation beta): This has counterintelligence applications, people disconnecting from trickery. I'd be surprised if this wasn't universal, but a civilization without this would need access to forms of counterintelligence relevant magic to compensate.

Psychometry("Receive brief flashes of insight (see
psychometry, page xx) when meeting
someone, or when touching something
they just put down.", "Use psychometry to read aspects and
signatures from a day ago, or other
events from a month ago.", " Use psychometry to read
aspects and signatures from a week ago,
or other events from up to a year ago."): Useful for spy games, criminal investigations, etc. Not sure lack of this leads to curbstomps.

Stealth Distractions("Distract others without being noticed."): Seems useful to be able to pull a Solid Snake with any degree of competence by the standards of the Great Basin, maybe part of the stealth suite?

Stealth Enhancement("Move with stealth and hide who you
are, blurring your appearance, muffling
your footsteps, and hiding in shadows."): Seems useful to be able to pull a Solid Snake with any degree of competence by the standards of the Great Basin, maybe part of the stealth suite?

Supernatural Forgettability("Those who see you will not remember
your face unless you wish it.", "People will
not remember your presence if you
make it so"): Useful for Spygames? Maybe part of the stealth suite?

Education Suite:

Archetype Channeling(Archetypal Expertise): There's stuff like Polymath, Photographic Experience, and people can still learn the old fashioned way, but a civilization without any of the abilities in this ballpark may have issues getting as many competent people as a civilization that does. Full implications of that are beyond my ability to confidently weigh in on.

Experience Storage(" Record and store
impressions and sensory experiences for
later (or for others’ use)."): Considerable Educational value but there are other tools so if a civilization has other training tools I don't see cause for concern if they don't have this.

Photographic Experience(Arete Fount ability): A civilization should have this or some other ability like polymath or archetype channeling.

Polymath("Live the Akashic Record" among other things): A civilization should have this or some other ability like polymath or archetype channeling.

Skill Sharing("Share skills during Rapport
that do not fade quickly."): Valuable for Educational purposes.

Spiritual Advisors(Glory's Immediate instruction ability, Necromancy's Invited Possession Ability, Oneiromancy's Invited Possession ability): See Polymath.

Medical Suite:

Healing("Quickly
heal trivial issues like minor headaches
and stubbed toes (see page xx for more on
healing).", "Quickly heal minor problems
like bruises, cuts, and abrasions.", "Quickly heal moderate injuries like
sprains, minor concussions, and the flu.", "Quickly heal
major wounds like broken bones, severe
concussions, or deadly diseases.", "Regenerate your body from grievous
injury."): Strong Military applications, a civilization without this will probably lose to one that does, possible universalization candidate?

Patron Complication Reduction("Once per session, reduce a Complication by one level by shunting part of the
effects to a celestial patron."): Effects somewhat replicable by healing/regeneration so this doesn't seem excessively hax. A civilization should have at least one of these though.

Military Suite:

Attack Chaining("Chain deadly attacks through multiple foes."): There's AOE Energy Waves, a civilization without either of these may have to make up for this by producing magical weapons that can. Depending on what conjuration and craftspeople can and can't do, it's not an utter steamroll if a civilization doesn't have either of these.

Curses("Spit curses of rage and misfortune.", "Curse your opponents with disease, debility, and calamity"): I don't know. A civilization with Curse and Energy Wave clearly beats a civilization with just one of them, but a civilization with just curses vs a civilization with just energy waves is another question.

Fear Effects("Frighten and demoralize", "Trigger instinctual reactions like fight-or-flight", "Paralyze your foes with waves of fear." ): Another thing in the territory of militarily applicable things that don't necessarily imply a curbstomp for a civilization to not have if they have other military tools.

Mana Enhanced Attacks("Enhance short-range attacks with magical force (e.g. flaming swords)", "Hurl magical assaults that express your personal signature (see Energy Waves, page xx).", "Crumble buildings to powder and blast formations asunder.", "Shake the ground with your wrath."): Part of a set of things any civilization probably needs at least one of to not get curbstomped in a war.

Travel Grid Surprise Defense suite:

Dimensional Monitoring("Sense objects stored in the Red
Space when they are hidden nearby,
though you can’t tell what they are.", "Feel when
a door to the Travel lattice is about to
open nearby.", "Feel when someone is
moving toward your location in the
Travel lattice", "Peer into the Red Space"): This can be made up for with travel grid interdiction somewhat, so this probably isn't a curbstomp if a civilization doesn't have this, assuming they can do travel grid interdiction.

Personal Scale Musings(Dimensional Monitoring): This is more valuable on the personal scale due to not having the backing to set up interdiction everywhere.

Travel Lattice Interdiction("Lock the Travel lattice,
at least locally."): Every civlization should have either this or Travel lattice monitoring, unless they're pulling a Geometer's guild.

Last edited on 06 Aug 2019 02:22 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 06 Aug 2019 00:43

Uncertain powers as in I'm having difficulty forming an opinion on them:

Environmental Illusions("Cast a single-sense illusion for a
small object or minor sensation.", "Create two-sense
illusions your own size, including
duplicates that act like you.", "Create fully immersive illusions of
dozens of people or a large ship.", "Cast an illusion as
wide as the world on a hundred creatures
before you, or weave one the size of a
town that all can see."): Considerable Military applications. Whether or not a civilization with this curbstomps one with just the universal list, I don't know.

Grow the Canon(Earthpower fount ability): Mechanically this is a better version of the Glory Fount's power, without the temporaryness and increased mana requirements to a society that conjures that way. A shortage of esoteric effects compared to the Glory fount, or some other factor I haven't though of may balance that out though, I don't know.

Leyline Redirection("Redirect Ley lines"): Potentially valuable for the economic side of a conflict. But there are other venues. I'm not sure this is overly gamebreaking.

Shapeshifting("Shapeshift
(see page xx) into a limited range of
forms that express your inner self and
your Tradition.", "Shapeshift (see page xx)
into a wider variety of more powerful
forms."): I don't know.

Powers I don't think not having causes curbstomps:

Artful Conjuration("When art-magi conjure things from the Canon of Form, they can create works
of art (to the extent of their skills) and embellish ordinary objects with artistic flourishes as they
desire."): Necessary for the exceedingly specific conflict of an Artistic Conjuration Contest. Whether or not a conflict that specific is worth making it universal I have no idea.

Astral Projection("Detach your soul so that it can
spirit-walk (including to the Worlds
Beyond) while you rest in meditation."): If you add in the Travel Grid from the Constructed List, it's still possible to do things in the worlds beyond without this. Also you're thinking about universal spirit-walking. I'm not sure people are losing out on much if this isn't Universal.

Attack Redirection("Take blows meant for nearby allies."): Enables Tanking in the MMO Sense. Lots of ways not having this can be made up for. Ridonkulous regeneration. Everyone being able to dodge, etc.

Canon Manipulation(Alchemy Fount): You'd need a very specific kind of scenario for lack of this to end in a steamroll. Sabotage the enemies stockpile of good X they need for purpose Y then use Canon manipulation so the only replacement good they can make can't be used for purpose Y because they can't counter-manipulate. Then they get overrun. Somehow. I don't know.

Cognitive Self-Editing("Alter your instincts, changing
your fight-or-flight responses.", "Alter your own core values at will")): A military unit that resorts to this could negate morale as a battlefield factor for them. Which would be a powerful advantage. On the other hand, it would probably seriously fark you up psychologically to edit yourself like that so not everybody did it. Mystic Defender/Servitor support, which is universal, might come in handy so you don't get psyched out fighting a group like that because your servitors are doing the job. Bury them under mindless automatons, with a sufficiently skilled minion commander and regular troops this wouldn't be a curbstomp.

Conjuration Material Substitution(Adapt the Canon for elementalism): I can't see anything that would lead to people getting curbstomped because they don't have this

Dream Intrusion("Enter
someone’s dream if you are nearby."): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Dream Messaging(Oneiromancy's Hang the Dream Ability): If Rapport is universal not having this isn't a curbstomp

Dream Observation("Watch the dreams of nearby
individuals."): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Dreamer Attraction("Draw Sleeping participants into a Dream World with their consent"): I'm not sure how somebody could be curbstomped from not having this.

Elemental Immunity: Lack of this could probably be gotten around with skill in other areas.

Elemental Transportation("They can fly
as fast as they could run, are immune to their own element, and can move quickly through
appropriate carriers for that element, but cannot necessarily pass through walls"): Depending on how this works, an water energy being could seriously get around with Rivers, this could be challenging, but a person with self 5, flight, and grid access is fast too so I'm not sure people get curbstomped from not having this.

Enhanced Conjuration Quality(Glory's More than ideal ability): The higher mana needs balance this out presumably.

Enhanced Giftgiving Speed(The Unroyal's benefit): The Unroyal may have an attrition advantage compared to other civilizations, but they also have to worry about psychological differences, cohesion between them and what they uplift if they aren't giving the gift to giftless humans, and educating their uplifts, so they probably aren't using this to curbstomp people anytime soon.

Exorcism("Send a departed soul to its next life."): Considering hostile ghosts can be fought the old fashioned way, I don't see how anybody can be curbstomped from not having this.

Flexible Conjuration Requirements("When conjuring objects from the Canon of Form, reagent-using magi can
substitute a symbolically-related type of mana for the kind that would normally be needed. One would ordinarily use fire-mana to create a burning torch, but they could also create one from a
companion's rage, or from the vision-aspect of a lens."): This gets balanced out the reagents civilization's higher need for physical resources.

Hypnopraxis(Various sleep related abilities across multiple founts): Every fount has its own stuff and the dreamworlds are still reachable via other means so I don't see how lack of this could lead to a curbstomp.

Hypnotism("Slowly and obviously implant hypnotic suggestions"): I don't see how lack of this leads to a curbstomp.

Illusory Disguises("Disguise
yourself as someone specific of your
species.", "Look like someone specific of a similar species", "Look like anyone at all"): Valuable for spy games, outlaws trying to go incognito, etc. I'm not sure lack of this leads to a curbstomp though, mundane disguise is a thing too and people might not check for those kinds of tricks if they check for illusions.

Manavore Feeding: I'm not sure how a civilization gets curbstomped from lack of this.

Memory Alteration("Lock or Unlock Memories"): A useful tool for spy games and criminal operations. I'm not sure how anybody gets curbstomped from not having this though.

Mental Assault("Attack other participants with War; they resist with mystery"/The Burning Dream", Forced Rapport if that's still a thing): Value is situational. Not sure how somebody gets curbstomped from not having this.

Mystical Signature Obfuscation("Blur your mystical signature so that there is doubt as to whether it is yours"): Value for spy games and criminal operations. Not sure whether or not lack of this leads to curbstomps though.

Object Reinforcement("Enhance physical properties of
existing materials, like clarity or
durability.", possibly Earthpower's Grow the Canon ability): I can't think of anything excessively hax here for a civilization if this isn't universal.

Phasing("They can fly and move through physical materials. They're
immune to purely physical attacks, but mental or energy attacks will still harm them"): There's spirit-walking so I don't see how a civlization gets curbstomped by not having this.

Possession: I'm not sure how a civilization gets curbstomped from not having this.

Protection from Attrition("Reduce the teamwork bonuses that others receive against them in conflicts by
one, including when facing opponents with Infrastructure."): It brings things closer to a pure skill vs skill fight, and so isn't necessarily a curbstomp for a civilization to not have.

Resurrection: It's farking difficult, so a civilization without this doesn't necessarily seem like it would be curbstomped by one that does. Plus people can visit afterlives and ask for advice.

Scalable Conjuration("When conjuring objects from the Canon of Form, geometer-mages can create
them to a larger or smaller scale, within the restrictions of their Industry-nature. For instance, if
Page 56
they conjure an ordinary wagon but need a larger one fitted for godly steeds, they can scale up
the wagon."): I can't think of a curbstomp from a civilization not having this.

Single-Cell Regeneration(If this is even still a thing, the regeneration you get at self 5 in the sixth alpha distro): Depending on how immortality flaws work, this isn't necessarily a curbstomp to not have.

Seance("Reach into the Worlds
Beyond and invite a soul back to the
Basin if you have a connection with
them.", Necromancy/Glory's Soulcalling ability): Isn't necessarily a curbstomp to not have for the same reason as resurrection

Social Link Based Dream Observation and Intrusion("Know
whether someone you know is dreaming
about you and join in that dream."): I'm not sure how someone would be curbstomped from not having this.

Soul Counterfeiting("Create fake pieces
of your soul to sell or trade that
evaporate when left unwatched."): I'm not sure how anybody would be curbstomped from not having this.

Spiritual Mediumry("With your premission, spirits can speak
through your mouth. "):I'm not sure how people get curbstomped from not having this.

Supernatural Escapology Skills("Inexplicably escape from manacles if
left unwatched.", "Escape
from sealed rooms while dozens watch."): I'm not sure how somebody gets curbstomped by not having this.

Telekinesis("Move small objects without touching
them.", "Lift a person
without touching them.", "Lift a wagon without
touching it.", "Lift a
house without touching it."): I'm not sure how one would get curbstomped from not having this.

Telepathy("Instil emotions or send a few short
words without speaking. Send subtle
moods to allies at a distance"): Useful for coordination in battle, I'm not sure lack of this leads to a curbstomp though.

Thaumaturgical Attack Targeting("Hurl deadly curses and bolts of power through mystical connections (page xx) at any range"): Powerful from a spygame standpoint, but I'm not sure lack of this leads to a curbstomp.

Thaumaturgical Ventriloquism(This could be part of telepathy)("Speak at
a distance using mystical connections"): This is in the same territory as Rapport as a military communication tool but doesn't have tying into other stuff to necessitate its universalization.

Last edited on 06 Aug 2019 00:43 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 06 Aug 2019 01:32

In hindsight I should probably do another pass over these focusing on the personal level.

Edit: Did a pass over the universalization candidates, edited in some musings from a more personal as opposed to institutional standpoint. Rapport(Universal enchantment implies this should be universal too), Flight(For racing), and all the Cognitive enhancements seem like they especially need universalization.

Healing(A powerful advantage in brawls), Mana Obfuscation(For infilitration of buildings with automated mana analysis), Mythical Industry Feats(For businesspeople), precognition(for similar reasons to cognitive enhancement), maybe physical enhancement and nature disconnection for more glaring candidates too.

Edit2: There may be candidates for universalization in the military and spygame suites. Moreso the spygame suite, to ensure people can infiltrate cities and organizations properly, along with detecting inflitrators.

Edit3: Mental assault may be a universalization candidate if forced rapport is still a thing because Rapport is a strong universalization candidate, and so people can fight back if somebody gets a mystic connection and tries to attack them mentally. Thaumaturgical attack targeting for the same type of long distance conflicts.

Edit4: Dimensional Monitoring is more valuable on the personal than institutional scale due to presumed lack of ability for persons to set up interdiction everywhere they want, and so is a universalization candidate.

Condensed Candidates thinking on a more personal level:

1. Rapport
2. Flight
3. All the Cognitive Enhancements
4. Healing
5. Mana Obfuscation
6. Mythical Industry Feats
7. Precognition
8. Physical Enhancement(Anyone without this loses arm wrestling to somebody that does)
9. Nature Disconnection
10. Mental Assault
11. Thaumturgical attack targeting
12. Dimensional Monitoring
13. Protection from Deprotagonizing effects
14 to n. Whatever might fit from the spygame suite.

Edit5: I think I've descended into incoherent ramble editing at this point but I hope this helps.

Last edited on 06 Aug 2019 02:35 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 13 Aug 2019 17:36

Definitely helpful. I think my list will be a bit trimmed down from this, but it's good to have your input.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 13 Aug 2019 19:15

Thanks. Glad I could help you narrow things down somewhat.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 13 Aug 2019 21:38

Here are the key conflicts:

Type	Individual	Mass
Physical	Combat	War
Mental	Investigation	Research blitz
Social	Persuasion	Culture / Econ clash
Cunning	Stealth	Spy games

From the current Universal list, Becoming, Translation, and Enchantment do not contribute to any particular conflict.

Immortality/regeneration is a universal defense in physical combat, and Warding handles it in war. I'm going to select Physical Enhancement as the universal offense. The only Fount that doesn't mesh well with that is Oneiromancy, and I'm ok with shoehorning (or crowbarring) one Fount.

Conjuration and Servitors can contribute to both economical clashes and research blitzes, but what you really need for those is large-scale mana manipulation. That's an infrastructure-level item that doesn't need to be covered at the individual scale. You also want Mental Augmentation, which I'm going to make universal as well, partly because you almost can't have transhumanism without it.

Investigation works best when you've got psychometry, but mental augmentation covers things well enough without it. Mental augmentation is also believable as a defense against mental assaults.

Spirit-walking handles personal-scale stealth effectiveness, but not counter-stealth. There are a lot of great options here - enhanced perception to pick up tiny traces, mana-vision to see the disturbance in the local magical flow, precognition to "guess" where they'll be, etc. Each one has major implications for the rest of the setting. I'm going with mana-vision (the name will be changed), partly because everyone is going to expect that to exist and because it ties into a bunch of other items.

Spy games are covered fairly well by servitors from the Mystery-nature, spirit-walking, mana-vision, and mental augmentation.

Some of the utility items that ConjuredBlade mentioned above should probably be included as well.

• I'm likely to fold slow flight into Spirit-Walking so that everyone can at least move up/down if they need to.
• I'm noticing I've never actually written anything about scrying. I've decided that's a good thing. I need to write a sidebar to emphasize the importance of Mystery-nature Servitors, mystical connections, and other workarounds.
• For mental conflict, I don't need everyone to be capable of striking that way - but I do want them to be able to strike back rather than just sit there and endure it with their mega-brains. So new rule - launching a mental assault against someone gives them an immediate mystical connection to you, as if you had cursed them. They can use their magic against you.

So this makes the new Universal list…

• Becoming*
• Conjuration
• Enchantment*
• Immortality*
• Mana-vision*
• Mental Augmentation
• Physical Enhancement
• Servitors
• Spirit-walking
• Translation*
• Warding

With the stars indicating "truly universal" items that are inherent to everyone.

I sort of like that list, because in some ways the items on that list are boring. There's cool stuff about them but most are not inherently cool. That means the cool stuff gets saved for the Exclusive category, and you get to specialize your character via fun stuff instead of via stuff you feel like you have to take in order to survive.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 14 Aug 2019 03:47

Sweeping enough that I don't realize full implications right now but that sounds mostly fine. Also I hadn't thought about what mystery servitors were or what they could do and I'm fascinated by what that's going to turn out as.

My remaining reservation is about how you can have universal Enchantment without universal Rapport though. Are they being decoupled?

Page 84 of sixth alpha distribution:

[quote]
To enchant someone, start by entering Rapport with them. It doesn't need to be a deep sharing,
but they need to be willing. You then cast a spell that shares your power
[/quote]

Last edited on 14 Aug 2019 03:48 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 14 Aug 2019 14:27

Yeah, I'll probably need to decouple them.

Sigh. Part of me wants to keep Rapport as a universal item, and fold Enchantment and Translation into it instead.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 05 Sep 2019 00:12

Further progress: the "x" indicates that that Fount does that thing.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 05 Sep 2019 21:51

This has my implications engine going and I have questions. Also I got on kind of a data kick.

For example, how does the modern Brightgarden Schema even work without curses/nightmare exile? Those Above the Sky and the Geometer's Guild are capable of neither of those, so they'd be stuck with elaborate illusion systems for marking their outlaws and need outside forms of magic to deal with criminals who disconnect from war and prove themselves worth the effort.

Is the Mana Shell Game still an important part of everyone's magical infrastructure with Treachery aspected mana being important? Are civilizations with it economic powerhouses? If so, the Diadem, Geometer's Guild, Glimmermere, Those Above the Sky, Worldbuilders, and Nova Commonwealth got a significant buff or everyone else got nerfed depending on how you look at things.

What do the tiers mean?

Below are tentative lists of civilization capabilities made by putting together this list with a list of universal/constructed expressions incase they help with figuring out stuff like flight/rapport/healing/energy waves/etc. I also did some lists and numbers including the Universal/constructed list. Would expressions not on a civilization's list be undoable without bringing in outside traditions, or just a big enough pain that reserve spending is necessary to pull them off? Are Tradition-linked expressions still a thing?

All the Civilizations with Deconjuration are uniquely capable of making underground bases secretly(Deconjuration to remove the dirt, Industry servitors to minimize the number of humans leaking information)

Shapeshifting is in practice a universal power from a civilization standpoint given the current civilization traditions and founts it's available to.

--------------——

The Universal List and how it may effect your numbers

Universal/Constructed(14): Becoming, Conjuration, Enchantment, Immortality, Mana-Vision, Mental Augmentation, Physical Enhancement, Servitors, Spirit-walking, Translation, Warding, Travel Lattice, Red Space, Universal Repositories

Communion(2) - Translation, Universal Repositories
Industry(2) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice
Mystery(2) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking
Self(2) - Becoming, Immortality
Trickery(1) - Red Space
War(1) - Physical Enhancement
Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

Expression Natures across all founts and including Universal/Constructed abilities

Communion - 8
Industry - 10
Mystery - 5
Self - 5
Trickery - 6
War - 3
N/A - 2
Universal/Variable = 4

(Numbers are ordered Communion/Industry/Mystery/Self/Trickery/War for the list of Totals across fount exclusives, universals, and constructed things)

Adding Alchemy is 3,7,4,3,3,1
Adding Arete is 5,3,5,3,3,2
Adding Earthpower is 2,7,5,3,1,2
Adding Elementalism is 2,8,2,3,3,1
Adding Glory is 6,2,4,5,3,3
Adding Necromancy is 4,4,3,5,3,3
Adding Oneiromancy is 8,3,5,3,4,1

---

Tentative/Current Civilization Unique Capabilities Lists(Excluding Nova Commonwealth)

Cult of the Empty Grave(Necromancy)(26):

Communion(4) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dreamshaping, Mnemosurgery

Industry(4) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Repair

Mystery(3) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise

Self(5) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-Work, Soulcalling

Trickery(3) - Red Space, Hallucination, Lagged Curses

War(3) - Physical Enhancement, Curses, Forced Rapport

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

Diadem(Oneiromancy/Elementalism)(35):

Communion(8) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Dreamshaping, Hypnopraxis, Mnemosurgery, Guising, The Burning Dream

Industry(8) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Deconjuration, Repair, Tailored Canon, Telekinesis, Transmutation, Weather-Work

Mystery(5) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(3) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting,

Trickery(5) - Red Space, Hallucination, The Shell Game, Personae, Nightmare Exile

War(1) - Physical Enhancement

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(1) - Multitasking

Geometer's Guild(Alchemy)(25):

Communion(3) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Mnemosurgery,

Industry(7) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Deconjuration, Repair, Tailored Canon, Transmutation

Mystery(4) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(3) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting

Trickery(3) - Red Space, Hallucination, The Shell Game

War(1) - Physical Enhancement

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

Glimmermere(Oneiromancy/Arete)(35):

Communion(8) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Dreamshaping, Hypnopraxis, Mnemosurgery, Guising, The Burning Dream,

Industry(4) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Deconjuration, Telekinesis

Mystery(5) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(4) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-Work

Trickery(6) - Red Space, Hallucination, Personae, The Shell Game, Lagged Curses, Nightmare Exile

War(2) - Physical Enhancement, Curses

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(2) - Multitasking, Null Tolerance

Golden Aegis(Glory/Arete)(34):

Communion(7) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Dreamshaping, Hypnopraxis, Guising, The Burning Dream

Industry(3) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Telekinesis,

Mystery(5) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Psychometry, Precognition

Self(5) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-Work, Soulcalling

Trickery(5) - Red Space, Hallucination, Lagged Curses, Personae, Nightmare Exile

War(3) - Physical Enhancement, Curses, Forced Rapport

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(2) - Multitasking, Null Tolerance

Hearth-Kin(Earthpower/Arete)(34):

Communion(6) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Hypnopraxis, The Burning Dream, Guising

Industry(8) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Nature-Work, Repair, Tailored Canon, Weather-Work, Telekinesis

Mystery(5) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(4) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-Work

Trickery(3) - Red Space, Lagged Curses, Personae

War(2) - Physical Enhancement, Curses

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(2) - Multitasking, Null Tolerance

Sovereigns of Hell(Glory/Necromancy)(30):

Communion(6) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Dreamshaping, Hypnopraxis, Mnemosurgery

Industry(4) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Repair

Mystery(4) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Psychometry

Self(5) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-Work, Soulcalling

Trickery(4) - Red Space, Hallucination, Lagged Curses, Nightmare Exile

War(3) - Physical Enhancement, Curses, Forced Rapport

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

Those Above the Sky(Alchemy/Elementalism)(28):

Communion(3) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Mnemosurgery

Industry(9) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Deconjuration, Repair, Tailored Canon, Transmutation, Telekinesis, Weather-work

Mystery(4) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(3) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting

Trickery(3) - Red Space, Hallucination, The Shell Game

War(1) - Physical Enhancement

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(1) - Multitasking

Unroyal(Earthpower/Glory)(35):

Communion(6) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dream Travel, Dreamshaping, Hypnopraxis, Guising

Industry(7) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Nature-Work, Repair, Tailored Canon, Weather-Work

Mystery(5) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise, Precognition, Psychometry

Self(5) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-work, Soulcalling

Trickery(4) - Red Space, Hallucination, Lagged Curses, Nightmare Exile

War(3) - Physical Enhancement, Curses, Forced Rapport

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(1) - Multitasking

Worldbuilders(Necromancy/Elementalism)(33):

Communion(4) - Translation, Universal Repositories, Dreamshaping, Mnemmosurgery

Industry(9) - Conjuration, Travel Lattice, Cloning, Repair, Deconjuration, Tailored Canon, Telekinesis, Transmutation, Weather-work

Mystery(3) - Mana-Vision, Spirit-walking, Expanded Expertise

Self(5) - Becoming, Immortality, Shapeshifting, Soul-work, Soulcalling

Trickery(4) - Red Space, Hallucination, Lagged Curses, The Shell Game

War(3) - Physical Enhancement, Curses, Forced Rapport

Universal/Variable(4) - Enchantment, Mental Augmentation, Servitors, Warding

N/A(1) - Multitasking

Shortform Nature counts by Civilization(Communion/Industry/Mystery/Self/Trickery/War)(Universal/Variables and N/A's are factored into totals in spite of not being included in specific nature counts)

Diadem(Oneiromancy/Elementalism)(35): 8,8,5,3,5,1
Unroyal(Earthpower/Glory)(35): 6,7,5,5,4,3
Glimmermere(Oneiromancy/Arete)(35): 8,4,5,4,6,2
Golden Aegis(Glory/Arete)(34): 7,3,5,5,5,3
Hearth-Kin(Earthpower/Arete)(34): 6,8,5,4,3,2
Worldbuilders(Necromancy/Elementalism)(33):4,9,3,5,4,3
Sovereigns of Hell(Glory/Necromancy)(30):6,4,4,5,4,3
Those Above the Sky(Alchemy/Elementalism)(28): 3,9,4,3,3,1
Cult of the Empty Grave(Necromancy)(26): 4,4,3,5,3,3,4
Geometer's Guild(Alchemy)(25): 3,7,4,3,3,1

---

Major Civilizations with access to each power(Including Nova commonwealth so all of them have at least 1)

Special

Shapeshifting(11): Every civilization is capable of this to some degree

Lists of Civlizations that can't use a specific expression

Hallucination(10): Only Hearth-Kin can't do this.

Psychometry(9): Cult of the Empty Grave and Worldbuilders can't do this.

Expanded Expertise(9): Geometer's Guild and Those Above the Sky can't do this

Repair(9): Golden Aegis and Glimmermere Can't do this.

Cloning(8): Diadem, Golden Aegis, and Glimmermere can't do this

Curses(8): Those Above the Sky, Diadem, and Geometer's Guild can't do this

Dreamshaping(8): Geometer's Guild, Hearth-Kin, and Those Above the Sky can't do this.

Lagged Curses(8): Those Above the Sky, Diadem, and Geometer's Guild can't do this

Mnemosurgery(8): Golden Aegis, Hearth-Kin, and Unroyal can't do this.

Multitasking(8): Geometer's Guild, Cult of the Empty Grave, and Sovereigns of Hell can't do this

Precognition(8): Cult of the Empty Grave, Sovereigns of Hell, and Worldbuilders can't do this

Soul-Work(8): Diadem, Geometer's Guild, and Those Above the Sky can't do this.

Dream Travel(7): Geometer's Guild, Cult of the Empty Grave, Worldbuilders, and Those Above the Sky can't do this.

Hypnopraxis(7): Geometer's Guild, Cult of the Empty Grave, Worldbuilders, and Those Above the Sky can't do this

Tailored Canon(7): Golden Aegis, Cult of the Empty Grave, Sovereigns of Hell, and Glimmermere can't do this

Telekinesis(7): Geometer's Guild, Cult of the Empty Grave, Sovereigns of Hell, and Unroyal can't do this.

Deconjuration(6): Cult of the Empty Grave, Unroyal, Sovereigns of Hell, Golden Aegis, and Hearth-Kin can't do this

Nightmare Exile(6): Cult of the Empty Grave, Hearth-kin, Geometer's Guild, Those Above the Sky, and Worldbuilders can't do this.

Forced Rapport(6): Diadem, Geometer's Guild, Glimmermere, Hearth-Kin, and Those Above the Sky can't do this.

Soulcalling(6): Diadem, Geometer's Guild, Glimmermere, Hearth-Kin, and Those Above the Sky Can't do this

The Shell Game(6): Cult of the Empty Grave, Golden Aegis, Hearth-Kin, Sovereigns of Hell, and Unroyal can't do this.

Weather-Work(6): Geometer's Guild, Cult of the Empty Grave, Glimmermere, Golden Aegis, and Sovereigns of Hell can't do this.

Guising(6) - Cult of the Empty Grave, Sovereigns of Hell, Geometer's Guild, Those Above the Sky, and Worldbuilders can't use it

Civilizations that can perform a specific expression(Nova Commonwealth explicitly specified below this point)

Personae(5): Nova Commonwealth, Diadem, Glimmermere, Golden Aegis, and Hearth-Kin can do this

The Burning Dream(5): Nova Commonwealth, Diadem, Glimmermere, Golden Aegis, and Hearth-Kin can do this

Transmutation(5): Nova Commonwealth, Diadem, Geometer's Guild, Those Above the Sky, and Worldbuilders can do this

Null Tolerance(4): Golden Aegis, Hearth-Kin, Glimmermere, and Nova Commonwealth can do this

Nature-work(3): Hearth-Kin, Unroyal, and Nova Commonwealth can do this

Last edited on 05 Sep 2019 22:40 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 05 Sep 2019 22:01

Frak. I realized I had Nightmare Exile filed under Communion for some reason. Also, I overlooked Guising.

Edit: Ok those errors should hopefully be gone at this point, did some editing of my previous post.

Last edited on 05 Sep 2019 22:41 by OctarineShrike Show more

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 12 Sep 2019 16:48

With the current setup you have a number of abilities you can do easily (you're prepared for them basically all the time), and some you have to spend Reserve on. This shows which ones are easy. So you can still curse or exile people for criminal acts, but ordinary people in some civilizations don't walk around being ready to sling curses whenever.

Tiers were my way of making sure that I didn't use "equal numbers of magical powers" without including how effective/flexible those powers were. Cloning and Null Tolerance are great and all, but they're not going to come up often, whereas Curses and Shapeshifting have tons of applications. Tiers will probably not appear in the book.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 12 Sep 2019 20:03

Nice. No implications come to mind currently but nice.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

Colin_Fredericks 12 Sep 2019 21:18

I had a chance to look through the numbers you compiled, and I'm pretty happy with them. The gap between single-Fount civs and multiple-Fount civs is there, but it's not overwhelming. There are a few oddities - for example, the Worldbuilders should definitely get psychometry - but I feel a it can be handled with a small number of case-by-case exceptions.

Thanks for compiling them.

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 12 Sep 2019 22:04

Glad I could help. I suppose next is figuring out where stuff like flight/rapport/energy waves/healing/whatever else wasn't in the previous list fit in?

Re: Sorcerously Advanced - Ubiquitous, Exclusive, Constructed

OctarineShrike 13 Sep 2019 04:00

Extending on this, I realized Fear effects could be added to the list too.

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